Building a Gun

Gun related chat that doesn't fit in another forum

Re: Building a Gun

Postby Bitter Bastard on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:19 am

LESchwartz wrote:
Bitter Bastard wrote:Thanks for posting the letter. That is interesting, especially since it references regs related to FFL's and not non-licensees.


Most home gunsmiths mark receivers they make. First, it's just good practice in case the firearm is ever stolen. Second, receivers are typically heat treated which makes it difficult to mark later.

As to non-licenses being able to manufacture firearms for personal use: That's in ATF's published regs. It would be difficult for them to alter that decision without some sort of notice in the Federal Register. But as you say weirder things have happened with the ATF.

Larry


The only thing I disagree with is the part of the ATF letter that says the maker must mark a receiver if the home-built gun is sold. That's what I'm calling BS on, since I've never seen anything in the law that supports that statement. Again, I'm not going to be a test case but it really chaps my hide when gov't agencies make up stuff as they go. Especially a gov't agency with such a long history of abuse, mismanagment, and lies as the ATF.
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Re: Building a Gun

Postby LESchwartz on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:50 pm

Bitter Bastard wrote:The only thing I disagree with is the part of the ATF letter that says the maker must mark a receiver if the home-built gun is sold. That's what I'm calling BS on, since I've never seen anything in the law that supports that statement. Again, I'm not going to be a test case but it really chaps my hide when gov't agencies make up stuff as they go. Especially a gov't agency with such a long history of abuse, mismanagment, and lies as the ATF.


I'm sure they would say that when a homemade firearm is sold (ie: released into interstate commerce) it has to comply with their regs. It would take a court case to dissuade them of that position, and like you, I don't want to become a test case.

Larry
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Re: Building a Gun

Postby Bitter Bastard on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:59 pm

LESchwartz wrote:
Bitter Bastard wrote:The only thing I disagree with is the part of the ATF letter that says the maker must mark a receiver if the home-built gun is sold. That's what I'm calling BS on, since I've never seen anything in the law that supports that statement. Again, I'm not going to be a test case but it really chaps my hide when gov't agencies make up stuff as they go. Especially a gov't agency with such a long history of abuse, mismanagment, and lies as the ATF.


I'm sure they would say that when a homemade firearm is sold (ie: released into interstate commerce) it has to comply with their regs. It would take a court case to dissuade them of that position, and like you, I don't want to become a test case.

Larry


They can say what they want but they aren't necessarily right. I really don't mean to argue with you, and I'm certainly not going to get my cat stomped to death defying them, I'm just saying that if someone doesn't mark their home built gun, I really don't think they are breaking any laws whatsoever. ATF letters are notorious for being contradictory to other letters, outright changed later on, and sometimes just plain legally wrong.

A lot of the laws surrounding FFL's and manufacturing firearms were passed in '68 when Congress didn't usurp their authority nearly so bad as today, and as such, the laws as written really are centered around LICENSEES and interstate commerce.

I respect the fact of what you have in writing and that does indeed give me pause but I do believe the letter to be legally incorrect.
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Re: Building a Gun

Postby bluzmeister on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:07 am

"Can you provide a link to that page so I can read the entire document? I looked up the code cited here: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/ ... 478.92.htm and it specifically is for licensed manufacturers. As a non-licensee, those provisions don't apply. I'm not a lawyer but can read english. I'm willing to be educated on this issue if I'm wrong."

Hello all,

I just joined after pondering the serial number thing on a firearm made from scratch as seen on American Guns. I happen to like the show overall and have no judgments to make on any of the cast. I like them all just fine and just enjoy seeing what they can build or what I can learn about guns I've never heard of. Anyway, after watching the last episode where that cowboy wanted the 1866 Yellow Boy to be an American made rifle and paid that exorbitant amount of money to have a one-of-a-kind rifle (and that was his choice and btw, I had never heard of that gun and one reason why I like this show), I was expecting to see and would have liked to have seen, 'Made In The U.S.A and serial number '1'' stamped clearly on that rifle as part of the presentation. I know if I would be able to pay that kind of money for something that unique and was concerned about the country of manufacture being provable, I'd probably have asked for that to be stamped on it, with Gunsmoke as the maker.

In reference to the quote, there's another forum on the topic you asked for a link to (the letter), http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f47/gun-building-legality-2894/ (scroll down to post by BBet), but the link didn't work, however the post includes an excerpt and some further discussion on how the ATF has discretion on applying laws. It is similar I think to how government entities have discretion absent any existing law for a unique situation, to enforce compliance by persons not specifically addressed within a statute or who the statute was intended for if the governmental entity deems it sufficiently applicable (again absent any specific law for a unique situation), and that discretion is often granted by other laws which allow that discretion for the public good, as it were.

I don't make the laws; just certainly don't want to break them either. I’ve run into this same type of thing with the laws governing Medicaid regarding my disabled sister that I take care of. The state has broad discretionary power granted to them by the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare and when I've tried to involve the CMS over matters where I know the state isn’t following the federal statutes set forth in the Social Security Act (which CMS is put in place to administer for the federal government), I get the answer that the state has broad discretionary authority and if they choose to do something that I may feel contradicts SS Act law, they just tell me that's their right to do so.

I think the ATF is in a similar situation and has broad discretion and authority to apply related laws to a given situation or person even if the statute would seem to exclude the person that the law is being applied to by the ATF.

That's beaurocracy for ya!
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Re: Building a Gun

Postby Snakeman721 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:33 pm

chopper wrote:
Bitter Bastard wrote:I would bet Gunsmoke has their manufacturer's FFL, so they had their company info and a serial number engraved on it as part of the build process. I base that on the fact they have at least one CNC and took orders for more of the guns after the preacher talked them up.

If a non-FFL builds a gun, there is no requirement for any markings or paperwork to sell it. Those regs, federally speaking, are for licensees.



I bought a black powder revolver kit in the 70's ( it had to be finished and assembled)it is not a muzzle loader, it was made by CVA and although it has the manufacture name does not have
a serial number, I had been thinking of selling it but is there some paperwork that has to be done? maybe someone with a FFL that has sold one could say what they had to do different if anything in order to sell. I see on gun broker that someone is selling one completely assembled factory new and it has a serial number. Or can I just advertise it and sell it as is with a bill of sale.


Black powder firearms are exempt (even revolvers).
Get off my lawn!
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