Permit holder kills mugger in S. Minneapolis!

[Scott Notaeh]

So some guest doesn't misconstrue any of the above, this discussion may be better conducted amongst ourselves in strategy. Would someone with the power move it please? Thank you.

That would be just great. It would end up being like the Treptow incident that I cant find information on either.

[Scott Notaeh]

We should stop speculating on how this will pan out. <br /><br />However, we should emphasis that yes, if you see a mugging and the mugger takes off, IT IS WRONG TO CHASE THE MUGGER IF YOU ARE CARRYING A HANDGUN. This doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a murderer.

This is a blanket statement that is wildly incorrect.

Too many what ifs involved.

Who was your instructor?

Perhaps this guy had the best instructor in the state and did everything perfectly. WE DON'T KNOW. Surprised so many are so quick to go with the media's story.

Bad guy goes around the corner of the store. Is he fleeing or taking cover? If I take cover myself and look around the corner, am I chasing or determining if there is still a threat?

[Heffay]

Perhaps this guy had the best instructor in the state and did everything perfectly. WE DON'T KNOW. Surprised so many are so quick to go with the media's story.

Bad guy goes around the corner of the store. Is he fleeing or taking cover? If I take cover myself and look around the corner, am I chasing or determining if there is still a threat?

I'm not talking about this particular case. As I said, in general, people should NOT go running after muggers if they are carrying.

[goett047]

[quote]We should stop speculating on how this will pan out. <br /><br />However, we should emphasis that yes, if you see a mugging and the mugger takes off, IT IS WRONG TO CHASE THE MUGGER IF YOU ARE CARRYING A HANDGUN. This doesn't make you a hero. It makes you a murderer.

This is a blanket statement that is wildly incorrect.

Too many what ifs involved.

Who was your instructor?

Perhaps this guy had the best instructor in the state and did everything perfectly. WE DON'T KNOW. Surprised so many are so quick to go with the media's story.

Bad guy goes around the corner of the store. Is he fleeing or taking cover? If I take cover myself and look around the corner, am I chasing or determining if there is still a threat?[/quote]
Thank you!!!!

According to Heffay you ARE A MURDERER

[Chunkychuck]

Wasn't there a case in the Twin Cities a few years ago where a neighbor chased down a suspected burgler and held him at bay with a unloaded shotgun until police arrived and he ended up being charged with assault?

[Squib Joe]

Again, we don't know that this guy "chased down" or pursued the perp in ANY WAY. What if he was running towards the victim to offer aid and the mugger just happened to be in the way?

[Heffay]

Again, we don't know that this guy "chased down" or pursued the perp in ANY WAY. What if he was running towards the victim to offer aid and the mugger just happened to be in the way?

Again, in general, you don't chase after a mugger. And this is what should be emphasized in this thread.

Somehow in your mind you need to find a way to separate this specific incident with overall bad ideas.

Well... you don't have to. You can continue to miss the point for all I care. It doesn't matter, because it's been referred to a grand jury to determine if any charges will be filed.

[Squib Joe]

Again, in general, you don't chase after a mugger.

You shouldn't chase down a mugger (especially with the intent to stop him with the threat of deadly force) unless it is your job to do so. I think most of us agree with that.

I'm saying the facts aren't in, so we shouldn't assume this happened. At all.

[CraigJS]

It would have been much easier to defend his shooting the mugger to STOP the mugging, fearing the mugging victim would be beaten to death. Chasing him down seems to really change his justifying the use of deadly force. That unwilling participent thing.. You can't play cop while carrying. Stay tuned folks.

[Stradawhovious]

Hearsay, conjecture, speculation.......

Guesswork speculation hearsay hearsay conjecture.

That's my .02.

[bstrawse]

Right now, none of us know enough to have an opinion on this. I suggest waiting to see what the actual facts of the incident are before launching into heated debates over what happened and whether or not it was proper & legal.
b

[northernglocker]

Oh, I have an opinion and this is it. A guy sees a little old lady getting mugged. He ends the mugging and sees to it that scum like this dont get to go around attacking little old ladies any more. Bravo Sir for being a decent human. Your next beer is on me

[goett047]

Right now, none of us know enough to have an opinion on this. I suggest waiting to see what the actual facts of the incident are before launching into heated debates over what happened and whether or not it was proper & legal.
b

Was my suggestion too...but I was told you need to add that he's a murderer if he indeed chased down the man with a gun who just committed a violent felony

[jshuberg]

629.30 ARRESTS; BY WHOM MADE; AIDING OFFICER.
Subdivision 1. Definition. Arrest means taking a person into custody that the person may be held to answer for a public offense. "Arrest" includes actually restraining a person or taking into custody a person who submits.
Subd. 2. Who may arrest. An arrest may be made:
(1) by a peace officer under a warrant;
(2) by a peace officer without a warrant;
(3) by an officer in the United States Customs and Border Protection or the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services without a warrant;
(4) by a private person.

629.37 WHEN PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE ARREST.
A private person may arrest another:
(1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting person's presence;
(2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or
(3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it

629.38 PRIVATE PERSON TO DISCLOSE CAUSE OF ARREST.
Before making an arrest a private person shall inform the person to be arrested of the cause of the arrest and require the person to submit. The warning required by this section need not be given if the person is arrested while committing the offense or when the person is arrested on pursuit immediately after committing the offense. If a person has committed a felony, a private person may break open an outer or inner door or window of a dwelling house to make the arrest if, before entering, the private person informs the person to be arrested of the intent to make the arrest and the private person is then refused admittance.

629.39 PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.
A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before a judge or to a peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=629.30
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=629.37
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=629.38
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=629.39

While most will probably agree that a citizen placing another citizen under arrest is a *huge* risk (both physically and legally), and quite possibly a really bad idea in general, it is a power very specifically spelled out in MN law. I have discussed this hypothetical situation with several lawyers and other firearms instructors, as it is a question that comes up from time to time. My understanding is that this is currently a gray area, as the requirement to be an unwilling participant, and the right to execute a citizens arrest appear to be at odds with one another. Personally, I believe that executing a right granted me by the state of MN specifically to further the public good (citizens arrest) should not necessarily nullify my right to defend myself if the situation escalates into a lethal force encounter.

That being said, my advice would be the following: do not attempt to place someone under citizens arrest unless there is a significant public risk if you don't (such as subduing a serial rapist until police arrive, etc). Also you should presume that in doing so that you may have given up your right to legally use lethal force if the situation goes bad.

I am not a lawyer, so this is simply my own personal opinion. Hopefully this incident will add some clarity to this type of situation.

[John S.]

Retreat if at all possibe, or, CHARGE?


I think I was told retreat, I think!

But..............................if someone is stealing your vehicle, IN FLORIDA, I believe you can use deadly force, and I got a Florida permit!


Even in Florida dudes in trouble here: From Handgun Law: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapon ... fense.html

A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.