To restore or not to restore..... That is the question...

[Stradawhovious]

In addition to a 1911 build, I was thinking about adding one more thing to my restore list for the winter.

I just took my Springfield model 1884 trapdoor rifle hunting, and it performed great. Problem is, it shows it's age. the Cartouche is dated 1891, and the serial number substantiates this.

The rifle: It is sound, safe to fire, but has lots of surface rust, and "patina". I has been cut down from a full length 1884 to a carbine (poorly) but luckily the crown was done well. Although this seem to have been a common fate of this rifle, I have no idea how this effects the value. Also, all parts are original as far as I can tell with the exception of the front site.

The question: Is it worth keeping this thing original as a "collectors" item? The monetary value doesn't seem to be that great, but I don't know collector's value from a hole in the ground. Obviously, if there is some value as a collectible in this I would leave it alone.

My concern: is that the "patina" aka rust that has already taken hold will eventually get worse without intervention. The stock has significant (albeit honest) wear as well.

My dilema: Do I clean it up a bit as a shooter, or douse it with oil and keep it in the safe to be wiped with a diaper every now and again, only to be shot on special occaisions at the range? When I say clean it up, I mean really clean it up. Cold blue job after stripping the metal parts, and refinishing the stock. Luckily the inside of the breech is in fantastic shape, and doesn't need to be touched.

I am very competent with wood, and have no problem with that. I am comfortable enough with the metal to be able to clean it up to the point of cosmetic acceptance, and to keep the corrosion at bay. My concern is that it will have lost any collector value (assuming there is any) it might have had.

Please feel free to participate in the poll, but if you have comments, please back them up with something other than "Don't do it" or "Do it" or "You're a **** moron" etc.

Thanks.

ETA. After looking at the pictures, the rust and corrosion is a bit worst than the picures lead on.

[rugersol]

There was a time I didn't much care about the rifle I shot my first deer with. As it is, I'm quite glad I kept it, over the years.

I 'spose if it was mine, I'd never sell it ... at which, if I took away any collector's value, it really don't matter.

All the same, I see nothing about the rifle that I'd wanna change, from yer pictures. I think it'd be a particular shame, to take away from that very fine inspector's mark (I'm guessing that's what that is).

Regardless, it might be worth it to have a couple guys look at it ... tell ya what it might be worth. It's been my experience, if ya ask Al nicely, he'll tell ya. That way, if it were ever ... God forbid ... a matter of replacement value, fer insurance ... 'er if yer widow 'er kid ever wanted to sell it, they don't bring it to Al and walk away with a big smile and a single Franklin!

FWIW, I got a buddy who collects 1800's Winchesters ... it sounds like, if it's been refinished, and there's no paperwork verifying it was Turnbull that did it, it's a good 25 - 50% off the gun's value.

Fer argument's sake ... let's say yer gun's worth $1,200 ... next year, would ya rather take a $600 gun up in the tree?

[Squib Joe]

If you plan on keeping it forever and want something pretty to look at, go for it, but if you want to add to the value by restoration in almost all cases it does just the opposite.

I would completely strip it down, cover all metal parts with RIG and leave it for a few months. After the oxidation has stopped you can wipe off the loosened rust and put a layer of conservation wax on it to keep it from coming back.

Good article on Trapdoor restoration here:

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/restoration.html

[Stradawhovious]

If you're referring to the stamp in the wood, apparently that mark (cartouche) shows the date that the armorer mated the berreled action to a stock. In this case, it matches the serial number.

Should I decide to refinish it, it would appear to be untouched.

Also, I'm not interested in selling this. Like you said, its the rifle I shot my first deer with. If anything, it will end up in the hands of my kids when I die.

I guess I'm just interested in making sure it last that long....... And maybe taking it on a few more hunts. Without touching it, I'm afraid I can accomplish one or the other, but not both.

My best bet is more than likely to just leave it alone...... But I'm not sure it really has any value as a collector. The number you threw out ($1,200) is quite a bit more than the all original, unaltered 1884s go for. Well, In my limited research anyways.

Maybe I will just hang it above the tv, and take it to the range twice a year. It really is a piece of American history, butchered or not.

Decisions, decisons, decisions.

[Stradawhovious]

If you plan on keeping it forever and want something pretty to look at, go for it, but if you want to add to the value by restoration in almost all cases it does just the opposite.

I would completely strip it down, cover all metal parts with RIG and leave it for a few months. After the oxidation has stopped you can wipe off the loosened rust and put a layer of conservation wax on it to keep it from coming back.

Good article on Trapdoor restoration here:

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/restoration.html

Thanks Joe, looks like a great resource!

And I'm aware that anything I do to this, other than pack it in cosmoline and store it forever will detract from the value.......... I have no delusions of being able to increase its value.

Funny thing is I don't know what this thing would even sell for. (again, no interest in selling, but it would be nice to now for insurance purposes and such.)

[Rip Van Winkle]

The rifle has already been bubbaized so it has no collector value, unless you can prove John Moses Browning did the work. If it has no sentimental value as it is, I say go for it.

[Norsesmithy]

Old stock forends and old stock barrels for these rifles are still available (S&S firearms). It can be restored to a "real" correct condition, and will then be worth the same as a rifle that was rearsenaled (worth less than correct original, worth much more than bubba'd).

BUT I think that in this case, if you intend to keep this rifle as a shooter, you might want to just preserve it in current condition.

Either way, electrolosis is the only way to remove rust without removing original finish or beneficial patina, and the only "finish" you will be able to apply (and still keep your options open WRT restoration) would be to keep it oiled.

[tman]

The rifle has already been bubbaized so it has no collector value, unless you can prove John Moses Browning did the work. If it has no sentimental value as it is, I say go for it.

They used to say that about re-armored USGI 1911's. Now, it seems that's about all you can find. They're getting a premium.

My suggestion: keep it as-is. Do what you can to keep the oxidation from getting worse. Don't shoot it much.

(note: my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it)

[gyrfalcon]

If you plan on keeping it forever and want something pretty to look at, go for it, but if you want to add to the value by restoration in almost all cases it does just the opposite...

I disagree... Proper restoration almost always adds value, but generally it costs much more (financially or in time) than the value it adds to the resale price.

The rifle has already been bubbaized so it has no collector value, unless you can prove John Moses Browning did the work. If it has no sentimental value as it is, I say go for it.

+1

[Dick Unger]

I would not refinish the wood, they'll know if it has been sanded. The "shortening" is now old enough that it is part of the nomal history of the rifle. After 100 years, Bubba becomes a recognized gunsmith.

We lost a big deer yesterday, if you are a firearms deer hunter get a 308 semiauto that will give you plenty of firepower for followup shots. Your single shot will be too slow someday.


The gun will work just as well for hunting "as is". In my experience, a few years after restoration of a historical gun (as opposed to Grandpa's gun), you will regret it.

[Rip Van Winkle]

The rifle has already been bubbaized so it has no collector value, unless you can prove John Moses Browning did the work. If it has no sentimental value as it is, I say go for it.

They used to say that about re-armored USGI 1911's. Now, it seems that's about all you can find. They're getting a premium.

My suggestion: keep it as-is. Do what you can to keep the oxidation from getting worse. Don't shoot it much.

(note: my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it)

The difference is, a re-armored USGI 1911 is still a USGI 1911, it hasn't been bubbaized into something barely recognizable.

As far as buying parts to restore this rifle, it would be cheaper to just buy a correct rifle than try to restore this one.

Unless Great Grampa used this particular rifle fighting indians at Little Bighorn it will never be worth anything but a shooter.

[Stradawhovious]

Good debate folks. Keep it up!

For this particular rifle, it has no sentimental value to me other than the fact that I took my first deer with it. I purchased it for what I felt was a fair price, knowing that it had been "sporterized" I think the guy called it. All in all I thought it looked really cool, and had a fun history. The fact that I can get a usable group at 75 yards with it is a really nice bonus.

We lost a big deer yesterday, if you are a firearms deer hunter get a 308 semiauto that will give you plenty of firepower for followup shots. Your single shot will be too slow someday.

I am fully aware of the limitations of this rifle, and that there are more capable and suitable ones available. I even own a handfull of semis that would fit the bill, and will probably take one of them instead next time. I picked this one for my first hunt to add to the memory of it. And it certainly will.

[farmerj]

I would leave that patina alone...

Makes it look gorgeous.

[old guy]

That old rifle has character, if you restore it it will never be the same. I had one just like it back in the late 60's.

John

[EJSG19]

I'd leave it as is and keep it up best I could.

All I have seen is photos, which you say don't do the rust justice, but still, it looks pretty bad ass from what I can see.

The full cleanup will make it nice, in one sense of the word, but I'd be afraid of it losing most of it's character in the process.

I have my Dad's old Remington Fieldmaster he had as a kid, which is in a similar condition. Looks great when well oiled up, but its a constant struggle against surface rust.