Pistol Overall Length

[JJ]

So I recently setup an AR pistol for deer hunting. I have since decided I want a bit longer barrel than my first (7"). I have been unable to specifically locate any info if MN has any restrictions on pistol length.

So, in theory, a guy could build an AR pistol, and throw a 24" bbl on it and be legal.

ATF Definition of a pistol

Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter B Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11
Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

There is no actual regulation on overall length per ATF regulations. So far i haven't uncovered anything in MN that would go above or beyond federal code.

So, any of you internet sleuths care to show me where I am wrong? Otherwise next season i will be hunting in a slug zone with an 18" 6.8spc "Pistol"

[Squib Joe]

If it doesn't have a shoulder stock (and never did), has full rifling, and it only has one grip perpendicular or angled to the bore axis, I don't see the problem.

[dshortone]

With no proof to back me up...

I thought that above a certain weight or barrel length, it becomes a non-AOW AOW.

I know that there is a company with a 10" (maybe 12") barreled AR pistol, which actually has a vertical grip off of the handguard, but there is an ATF letter accompanying it verifying that it's not an unregistered AOW.

Sorry that I don't have more concrete info, but this is off the top of my head. Good luck!

[Holland&Holland]

With no proof to back me up...

I thought that above a certain weight or barrel length, it becomes a non-AOW AOW.

I know that there is a company with a 10" (maybe 12") barreled AR pistol, which actually has a vertical grip off of the handguard, but there is an ATF letter accompanying it verifying that it's not an unregistered AOW.

Sorry that I don't have more concrete info, but this is off the top of my head. Good luck!

TC encore's come with 15 inchers, just a thought.

[Rem700]

T/C Encore the longest barrel I have seen is 15" there may be a reason but I cant say for sure.
I also saw somewhere on the interweb that 15" and shorter was pistol and 16" and longer is rifle, I never confirmed this just remember reading it somewhere.

I had wondered this myself sometime back, If I take my 15" T/C pistol and put a rifle barrel on it is it a pistol or a rifle?
While hunting the shotgun zone with the T/C and having a pistol permit I still unload and case as I believe the local CO would issue a ticket and let me pay to fight it in court. In conversation with him about the new case law for uncased longuns while out hunting he did state he will just issue tickets and let whoever take it to court.

[farmerj]

federal law kind of restricts it to 16". Over - Rifle, Under - SBR or pistol.

That's why the T/C pistols come with a 15" barrel.

[Beretta Dave]

What defines a handgun is the stock.

Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a
short stock and is designed to be held and
fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from
which a firearm described in paragraph (a)
can be assembled.

There is no restriction to barrel length. But if you add a shoulder stock it becomes a short barrel rife. A SBR is defined as a shoulder stock weapon with a barrel shorter than 18” and an overall length less than 26”.

[Bitter Bastard]

What defines a handgun is the stock.

Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a
short stock and is designed to be held and
fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from
which a firearm described in paragraph (a)
can be assembled.

There is no restriction to barrel length. But if you add a shoulder stock it becomes a short barrel rife. A SBR is defined as a shoulder stock weapon with a barrel shorter than 18” and an overall length less than 26”.

Close:
barrel shorter than 16” or an overall length less than 26”

[Beretta Dave]

Oops, you are correct Bitter.

[Squib Joe]

federal law kind of restricts it to 16". Over - Rifle, Under - SBR or pistol.

Could you cite your source for this? Certain states such as California define a pistol barrel as being under 16" (CA PC 12001), but I'm unaware of any Federal requirement. Uberti makes a Buntline with a 18" barrel and it isn't sold as a rifle.

[farmerj]

federal law kind of restricts it to 16". Over - Rifle, Under - SBR or pistol.

Could you cite your source for this? Certain states such as California define a pistol barrel as being under 16" (CA PC 12001), but I'm unaware of any Federal requirement. Uberti makes a Buntline with a 18" barrel and it isn't sold as a rifle.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... tguns.html

Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)?
While a receiver alone may be classified as a “firearm” under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR).

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... ock-pistol

Q: If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?
Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser “Broomhandles” and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors’ items.
[26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 479.11]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5845.shtml

For the purpose of this chapter—
(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

[Squib Joe]

None of these state a pistol has to have a barrel under 16", farmerj. They are referring to SBRs and other NFA firearms.

[farmerj]

Neither one of those says a pistol has to have a barrel under 16", farmerj. They are referring to SBRs and C&R antique firearms with shoulder stocks.

then please share what the definition of a pistol is.

From what I am seeing, if it is not a rifle, SBR, AOW or SBS, then it is simply defined as a "firearm". No where is pistol shown.

[Squib Joe]

then please share what the definition of a pistol is.

[27 CFR 479.11]

A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

[farmerj]

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/ ... 2011-4.pdf


I would concede the length is not defined by statute for a pistol.

But with rulings, court decisions and the other definitions. It's not an area I'd care to suggest anyone would want to be a test case for.

Because doing so, puts you within the realm of dealing with the complex world of NFA weapons and whether or not you need a Form 4.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they:
(a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or
(b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.