OAL questions

[rugersol]

I've attached a photo of two sample cartridges. In each one, I'm crimping on the first cannelure from the tip of the bullet--right in the middle of the lube-filled groove. The one on the right looks like it didn't go in squarely.

That actually looks like a nice crimp! ... could even go a skosh more,if ya wanted!

Now get you some store-bought bullets, and ya s/b all set!

[RottenHam]

I really appreciate all of the responses. And so quickly, too! Thank you all.

In searching for additional information, I've come across other discussions of OAL and they seem to center on feeding issues. Take, for example, this page. If you scroll down to the heading that says "How to measure maximum cartridge LENGTH" and read the text, it's all about OAL as a factor in feeding or accuracy. It doesn't say one thing about OAL being a safety issue. Clearly, I wasn't satisfied with this answer so I started this thread.

The Lyman book gives warnings about seating bullets so deeply that they compress the powder. I don't believe that's an issue here. I'm using the suggested starter load in the Lyman book for each bullet and the case is nowhere near being full. So, I know I'm not compressing the powder. Aside from that, I am concerned about reduced volume in the case. My goal for this loading session is to produce safe and functional ammunition. Accuracy considerations will come later.

[RottenHam]

I've attached a photo of two sample cartridges. In each one, I'm crimping on the first cannelure from the tip of the bullet--right in the middle of the lube-filled groove. The one on the right looks like it didn't go in squarely.

That actually looks like a nice crimp! ... could even go a skosh more,if ya wanted!

Thanks!

I'll take this opportunity to also confess that the RN bullet is slightly deformed (you can see the ring left by the top punch) because I took too heavy of a hand on the lube press. Another rookie mistake.

Now get you some store-bought bullets, and ya s/b all set!

That will probably be my next step as it's too cold to cast outside. (Well, too cold for me.)

[LarryFlew]

Using a hammer type puller means you are not likely to be using it correctly. Like Sam says good wacks on concrete. U can use the end of a 4x4 and never took more than 3 wacks on any caliber so far. Really hard without holding too hard on the handle so there is a pivot to your swing should do the trick. NOT like using a hammer as you won't get enough wack to do the trick. You're not going to break it so wack away.

[Rodentman]

«You're not going to break it so wack away.»

Good rookie advice.

«never took more than 3 wacks »

You're obviously a LOT younger than I am.

I agree with Sam based on personal experience. Setting a seating/crimping die is a PIA and any variation in brass length will skew the final resulting crimp. I like to use a separate crimp die, usually a Lee FCD although it's not my prefered crimper with lead due to the resizing ring. I DO like the easy adjuster on the Lee FCD however. I have a bunch of Lee dies, but prefer Redding and in every caliber where it's available I use a separate crimp die.

[RottenHam]

I took some additional pictures to illustrate my dilemma. I took an empty case and seated a bullet to the documented 1.550" OAL (I just seated it. I did not crimp it):

(Please forgive the rough texture of the bullets. These were the first I've ever cast. I think the mould wasn't hot enough. Lesson learned for next time...)

I then took a picture of this 1.550" cartridge next to one with the bullet seated to the "front groove" as suggested on the Lyman product website. Its OAL is 1.479":

I don't see how it's possible to both crimp this bullet on the "front groove" and obtain an OAL of 1.550". I can do one or the other but not both.

To add to my confusion, I found this picture in Ch 13., p. 58 of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th ed:

The author, Mike Venturino, is discussing the merits of seating the bullet to different depths. He says he likes to seat bullets for target rounds high so they engage the rifling when chambered. He likes to seat hunting rounds lower so the lubricated grooves are completely covered. He says nothing about the possible effects these various seating depths have on chamber pressures. He says nothing about adjusting powder charges to offset the changes in case volume. In fact, in Ch. 15, p.66, he writes:

"The moral of that story is that there is no set rule in regards to bullet seating depth and that experimentation pays dividends."

As a newbie, I find this very confusing. Bullet seating depth clearly affects case volume which affects chamber pressures. Bullet seating depth also clearly affects OAL. If one is to load rounds only to the specified OAL, then there is no possible variation in bullet seating depth.

So what am I missing that will make all of this clear?

[RottenHam]

One more thing...

I was able to easily remove the non-crimped bullet from the 1.550" OAL cartridge with the bullet puller. So, I guess I just need to whack it harder for the crimped rounds.

[DeanC]

1.550 is the max overall length for functioning purposes. Most powders do not require that length and use a shorter seating depth. Max OAL in revolvers generally has more to do with allowing your gun to work and min OAL has more to do with blowing your head off. Bolt action rifles: too much either way can result in face removal.

The longest seating depth I see for the WC is 1.295 and that is only for two loads. You need an additional manual.

/trying to find my Lyman 49th....

[rugersol]

he needs to crimp in the groove ... that's what it's fer!

something's wrong with his bullets ... take a close look, then at Lyman's picture ... he's losin' all of 0.08in off the nose.

he needs store-bought bullets! ... at least 'til he can cast 'em, jest as good.

[RottenHam]

Ah...that makes more sense. If 1.550" is the max OAL for proper functioning and not the only allowable OAL, then my 1.479" OAL cartridges are probably safe to fire.

Thanks!

[RottenHam]

he needs to crimp in the groove ... that's what it's fer!

something's wrong with his bullets ... take a close look, then at Lyman's picture ... he's losin' all of 0.08in off the nose.

he needs store-bought bullets! ... at least 'til he can cast 'em, jest as good.

I'm under no illusion that my cast bullets are works of art. I think I crushed that 0.08in off the nose in the lube press. Hopefully I'll get better with each attempt.

[DeanC]

then my 1.479" OAL cartridges are probably safe to fire.

Thanks!

I can't say that for sure without knowing which powder and how much you are using.

[mmcnx2]

Not to add to your concerns but those cast bullets don't look quite right. Are you sure the lead was up to temp? It appears you did not get very good flow into the edges. They all seem to be slightly deformed.

[DeanC]

Not to add to your concerns but those cast bullets don't look quite right. Are you sure the lead was up to temp? It appears you did not get very good flow into the edges. They all seem to be slightly deformed.

And how much do they weigh?

[Rodentman]

In a nutshell: I don't cast my own bullets. For .38spl I buy lead from Missouri Bullet Co and jacketed from MT Gold, usually. I seat and crimp in the cannelure on the jacketed bullets and to the crimp groove in the lead. I am therefore seating the bullets to the point intended by the bullet mfr. I don't load to max charges, sticking low to mid. I often use Trail Boss for the lead and Unique or Bullseye for the jacketed. I note the OAL in my notes and often it is less than the max OAL (never greater).

Unless there is something totally wacked about the length of the brass, I don't sweat the OAL in .38spl with my loads. I am not saying to ignore OAL, certainly in 9mm and .40 it's a different ball game. But trying to achieve max prescribed OAL with .38spl is not really the goal. I'd seat and crimp to the intended point and OAL will be a result of that.

That being said, I don't cast my own bullets and cannot say that yours are correct or that you should seat yours to the crimp groove. I think I am saying the same thing that Dean said, and he is correct in saying that knowing your powder choice and charge weight is necessary to say if your OAL is "safe."