George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby tazdevil on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:09 am

CraigJS wrote:The elements of self-defense are (1) the absence of aggression or provocation on the part of the defendant;  (2) the defendant's actual and honest belief that he or she was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm;  (3) the existence of reasonable grounds for that belief;  and (4) the absence of a reasonable possibility of retreat to avoid the danger.  State v. McKissic, 415 N.W.2d 341, 344 (Minn.App.1987) (citing State v. Johnson, 277 Minn. 368, 373, 152 N.W.2d 529, 532 (1967));  Minn.Stat. § 609.06, subd. 1(3) (1996).9  The degree of force used in self-defense must not exceed that which appears to be necessary to a reasonable person under similar circumstances.  McKissic, 415 N.W.2d at 344 (citing State v. Bland, 337 N.W.2d 378, 381 (Minn.1983)).   A defendant has the burden of going forward with evidence to support a claim of self-defense.   State v. Graham, 371 N.W.2d 204, 209 (Minn.1985).   Once it is raised, the state has the burden of disproving one or more of these elements beyond a reasonable doubt.  State v. Spaulding, 296 N.W.2d 870, 875 (Minn.1980).

Close enough for me!

Taken from here: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mn-supreme-c ... 80453.html


That's our laws, not so sure about Florida's there. Wouldn't Zimmerman have trouble with #4 though, from what has been released so far to us from various sources?
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby CraigJS on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:24 am

Yes our law. We can't really compare the two. No "unwilling participent" ,word for word may not be in there, but as stated ,CLOSE enough for ME. This article while written by an org. I don't care for is a very interesting read. Scroll down and at least read "update 1". Again I'm for a "stand your ground" type bill, but one that is better written then Floridas.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03 ... ed#update1
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby jdege on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:45 am

CraigJS wrote:The elements of self-defense are ...
Close enough for me!


I'm not claiming that "unwilling participant" isn't a reasonable paraphrase for certain aspects of the law. If it weren't, Joel wouldn't have included it in his book. But it remains a paraphrase, and people have a tendency to read into it more than exists in the law.

Now that we have witnesses coming forward that Martin was beating on Zimmerman does not mean that Zimmerman did not initiate the encounter. It may well have been that Zimmerman attacked Martin, and if that were the case, his grounds for a claim of self-defense would be weak. He'd not have been an "unwilling participant", as it were.

But for Zimmerman to have followed Martin, or to have approached him, or to have challenged him, and to have asked him what he was doing wandering around the neighborhood, was not a crime. And by doing so he would not have surrendered his right to claim self defense, if Martin were to have attacked him.

You cannot surrender your right to a claim of self defense by engaging in legal actions. And whether or not Zimmerman was wise to have followed and confronted Martin, for him to have done so was legal.

For this to not have been self-defense, Zimmerman would have had to assault Martin - and for that we've no witnesses other than what Martin's girlfriend reported to have heard during their phone conversation, and that's inconclusive.
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George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby illbits on Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:28 pm

jdege wrote:
CraigJS wrote:The elements of self-defense are ...
Close enough for me!


I'm not claiming that "unwilling participant" isn't a reasonable paraphrase for certain aspects of the law. If it weren't, Joel wouldn't have included it in his book. But it remains a paraphrase, and people have a tendency to read into it more than exists in the law.

Now that we have witnesses coming forward that Martin was beating on Zimmerman does not mean that Zimmerman did not initiate the encounter. It may well have been that Zimmerman attacked Martin, and if that were the case, his grounds for a claim of self-defense would be weak. He'd not have been an "unwilling participant", as it were.

But for Zimmerman to have followed Martin, or to have approached him, or to have challenged him, and to have asked him what he was doing wandering around the neighborhood, was not a crime. And by doing so he would not have surrendered his right to claim self defense, if Martin were to have attacked him.

You cannot surrender your right to a claim of self defense by engaging in legal actions. And whether or not Zimmerman was wise to have followed and confronted Martin, for him to have done so was legal.

For this to not have been self-defense, Zimmerman would have had to assault Martin - and for that we've no witnesses other than what Martin's girlfriend reported to have heard during their phone conversation, and that's inconclusive.

agreed
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby CraigJS on Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:14 pm

I don't think we'll ever know the complete truth about FLA. just too many spins. I do know two things though. 1. I'm glad it wasn't one of us. 2. Glad it wasn't in Minnesota.

Take care, be safe.. Craig
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby jdege on Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:45 pm

Something that seemed relevant:

CRIMJIG 7.07 Self-Defense—Revival of Aggressor's Right of Self-Defense

If the defendant began or induced the assault that led to the necessity of using force
in the defendant's own defense, the right to stand the defendant's ground and thus defend
(himself) (herself) is not immediately available to (him) (her). Instead, the defendant
must first have declined to carry on the assault and have honestly tried to escape from it,
and must clearly and fairly have informed the adversary of a desire for peace and of
abandonment of the assault. Only after the defendant has done that will the law justify the
defendant in thereafter standing (his) (her) ground and using force against the other
person. An “assault” is (1) an act done with intent to cause fear in another of immediate
bodily harm or death; or (2) the intentional infliction of or attempt to inflict bodily harm
upon another.

Comment
See M.S.A. § 609.02, subd. 10, for the definition of assault.
A plurality of the Minnesota Supreme Court, in State v. Edwards, 717 N.W.2d 405
(2006), expressed concern that the previous jury instruction on the revival of an
aggressor's right of self-defense misstated the law as it would allow the jury to find
forfeiture based on actions that were not sufficient to trigger the right to self-defense.
Although Edwards involved the use of deadly force, the right to self-defense can also
involve the use of reasonable force (see M.S.A. § 609.06 and M.S.A. § 609.65). The
Committee has substituted the word “assault” throughout the instruction to more
accurately reflect the circumstances under which forfeiture and revival of the right of
self-defense occur. This approach incorporates the policy choices discussed in Justice
Hanson's dissent and recognizes the reasonable beliefs of the victim in responding to
defendant's initial assault.


From the case cited:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15083818456665590983&q=State+v.+Edwards,+717+N.W.2d+405&hl=en&as_sdt=2,24&as_vis=1

Over Edwards' objection, the district court instructed the jury on an aggressor's right to a claim of self-defense. The court used CRIMJIG 7.07, which states:
If the defendant began or induced the incident that led to the necessity of using force in the defendant's own defense, the right to stand the defendant's ground and thus defend himself is not immediately available to him. Instead, the defendant must first have declined to carry on the affray and have honestly tried to escape from it, and must clearly and fairly have informed the adversary of a desire for peace and of abandonment of the contest. Only after the defendant has done that will the law justify the defendant in thereafter standing his ground and using force against the other person.

10 Minn. Dist. Judges Ass'n, Minnesota Practice—Jury Instruction Guides, Criminal, CRIMJIG 7.07 (4th ed. 1999). Edwards argues that there was no basis in the evidence for submission of the instruction and that the instruction misstates the law.

...

Legal Accuracy of CRIMJIG 7.07. In instructing the jury on Edwards' right to a claim of self-defense, the district court chose not to alter the language provided by CRIMJIG 7.07. We have stated that the district court has "considerable latitude in the selection of the language of a jury charge." State v. Pendleton, 567 N.W.2d 265, 268 (Minn.1997). But "jury instructions must not materially misstate the law." State v. Hare, 575 N.W.2d 828, 833 (Minn.1998). Edwards argues, and the dissent agrees, that the first sentence of CRIMJIG 7.07 materially misstates the law because the words "began or induced the incident" permitted the jury to find that he was the initial aggressor merely because he started a conversation with Oliver. Jury instructions are viewed in their entirety to determine whether they fairly and adequately explained the law of the case. State v. Jones, 347 N.W.2d 796, 801 (Minn.1984).

CRIMJIG 7.07 was drawn from instructions on self-defense that we described, more than 35 years ago, as "fair, complete, logically arranged, and legally sound." Love, 285 Minn. at 451, 173 N.W.2d at 427. In Love, a portion of the instructions read as follows:
Where a person seeks or induces a quarrel which leads to the necessity in his own defense of using force against his adversary, the right to stand his ground and thus defend himself is not immediately available to him, but, instead he first must decline to carry on the affray, must honestly endeavor to escape from it, and must fairly and clearly inform his adversary of his desire for peace and of his abandonment of the contest.

Id. at 451, 173 N.W.2d at 426. It is true that trial courts must use analytical precision in drafting instructions on self-defense 412*412 and should modify pattern jury instructions when necessary. State v. Marquardt, 496 N.W.2d 806, 806 (Minn.1993) (stating that jury instructions on self-defense should have been modified to fit the contentions of the parties). But Edwards did not request that CRIMJIG 7.07 be modified or supplemented.

Contrary to Edwards' suggestion, CRIMJIG 7.07 does not permit a jury to ground forfeiture of the defense simply on conversation. In the context of the instruction, the natural understanding of the word "incident" is that of a quarrel or conflict with potentially serious consequences. The instruction uses the words "affray" and "contest" interchangeably with "incident." The instruction requires that the defendant have a "desire for peace" before the right of self-defense is restored. When read as a whole, the instruction contemplates conduct that is a good deal greater than mere conversation.

...

HANSON, J., dissents with opinion in which PAGE and MEYER, JJ., join.

ANDERSON, PAUL H., Justice (concurring).

I concur. In so doing, I agree with the dissent's concern that CRIMJIG 7.07 on self-defense may misstate the law and is in need of revision. Nevertheless, the facts of this case do not establish that appellant Brian Keith Edwards met his duty to retreat if at all possible to avoid any threatened harm presented by Timothy Oliver. For this reason, I agree with the majority's alternative conclusion that any error in the submission of the instruction was harmless. Therefore, I agree that Edwards' conviction should be affirmed.

HANSON, Justice (dissenting).

I respectfully dissent. I conclude that it was error to instruct the jury by use of CRIMJIG 7.07, and that such error was not harmless.[1] Accordingly, I would reverse Edwards' conviction and remand for a new trial.

The critical fact issue for the jury to resolve at trial was which person was the first to use or threaten to use deadly force. The state's evidence suggested that Edwards aimed and fired his gun first. Edwards testified that Oliver aimed and fired his gun first.

If we accept the state's evidence as true, Edwards' use of deadly force would not have been in response to anything that Oliver did and could not be considered an act of self-defense. The general self-defense instruction makes clear that self-defense is not available to the person who uses deadly force first, without justification. 10 Minn. Dist. Judges Ass'n, Minnesota Practice—Jury Instruction Guides, Criminal, CRIMJIG 7.05 (4th ed. 1999). Thus if the jury found that Edwards shot first, there would be no need for either a self-defense or a self-defense forfeiture instruction because Edwards could not have been acting in self-defense.

Edwards' version of the facts does present a self-defense issue. If we accept Edwards' testimony as true, Edwards would be entitled to the general self-defense instruction because Edwards' use of deadly force would have been in response to Oliver's prior use of deadly force. Whether a self-defense forfeiture instruction would be appropriate under Edwards' version of the 415*415 facts depends on whether any of the preliminary actions taken by Edwards were sufficient to justify the use of deadly force by Oliver. But, even if a self-defense forfeiture instruction was appropriate, the use of CRIMJIG 7.07 was error because it misstates the law by allowing the jury to find forfeiture based on actions that were not sufficient to justify the use of deadly force by Oliver, such as merely inducing a conversation.

Because I cannot determine with any degree of certainty how the jury resolved the fact issue of who shot first, I cannot say that the error in instructing the jury by use of CRIMJIG 7.07 was harmless. In other words, I cannot eliminate the possibility that the jury believed Edwards' testimony that Oliver shot first and Edwards only shot in response, but rejected Edwards' claim of self-defense because the jury concluded, incorrectly from CRIMJIG 7.07, that Edwards had forfeited his right to self-defense by inducing the conversation.
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby shadeslanding on Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:48 pm

jdege wrote:
CraigJS wrote:The elements of self-defense are ...
Close enough for me!


I'm not claiming that "unwilling participant" isn't a reasonable paraphrase for certain aspects of the law. If it weren't, Joel wouldn't have included it in his book. But it remains a paraphrase, and people have a tendency to read into it more than exists in the law.

Now that we have witnesses coming forward that Martin was beating on Zimmerman does not mean that Zimmerman did not initiate the encounter. It may well have been that Zimmerman attacked Martin, and if that were the case, his grounds for a claim of self-defense would be weak. He'd not have been an "unwilling participant", as it were.

But for Zimmerman to have followed Martin, or to have approached him, or to have challenged him, and to have asked him what he was doing wandering around the neighborhood, was not a crime. And by doing so he would not have surrendered his right to claim self defense, if Martin were to have attacked him.

You cannot surrender your right to a claim of self defense by engaging in legal actions. And whether or not Zimmerman was wise to have followed and confronted Martin, for him to have done so was legal.

For this to not have been self-defense, Zimmerman would have had to assault Martin - and for that we've no witnesses other than what Martin's girlfriend reported to have heard during their phone conversation, and that's inconclusive.


What do you mean no eye witness other than Martin's girlfriend??? An eyewitness is the one who called it in. An eye witness's account match that of Zimmermans.

Here are the links to the relevant data including a statement from the Sanford FL City Manager:

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-cons ... von-martin

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/se ... z1phFMGCu4

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... ooting.pdf
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby jdege on Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:46 pm

shadeslanding wrote:What do you mean no eye witness other than Martin's girlfriend???

I mean none of the witnesses I've seen reported yet stated that they'd seen the beginning of the confrontation. By the time they'd become aware of it, the altercation was already in progress. Which they provide no light on whether Zimmerman assaulted Martin.

Except an unnamed 16-year-old girl, who says that she was talking to Martin on his cell phone when it started:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2-OpFRakYY

ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Crump about the last moments of the teenager's life. Martin had been talking to his girlfriend all the way to the store where he bought Skittles and a tea. The phone was in his pocket and the earphone in his ear, Crump said.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on the scene. Crump said the girl's identity was being withheld because "her parents are gravely concerned about her health and her safety." Her parents asked that only an attorney be allowed to ask her questions.


Which report doesn't really answer much. Certainly I'd not be willing to state it as conclusively proven as to which had begun the confrontation, based on that.

(It does, though, reinforce Zimmerman's position that Martin was acting suspiciously. If I saw someone walking down the street, and their response on seeing me, was to pull their hoody up, so as to hide their identity, and then to walk away fast, I'd call it suspicious.)
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby BuckKlier on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:42 pm

I predict this will end up just like the case back in October, where the guy in Minneapolis (with the carry permit) shot the purse snacher.

He was legal to go after the scumbag, to ask for the purse back, and legal to defend himself when he had to!
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby Humphrey Bogart on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:54 pm

Armed American Radio this Sunday night on 1280am the patriot from 7-10 pm should be good.

Andrew has been a guest when Joel was in the news.

Massaad Ayob was a guest last week. Podcast archive available at Armed American Radio . com
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby Pinnacle on Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:05 pm

Humphrey Bogart wrote:Armed American Radio this Sunday night on 1280am the patriot from 7-10 pm should be good.

Andrew has been a guest when Joel was in the news.

Massaad Ayob was a guest last week. Podcast archive available at Armed American Radio . com


Yeah 2 credible sources of nothing.

Andrew should learn not to help. Look at his sidekick, oops. Sorry, you can't.........Rothman is going to get someone else hung, this time from another time zone. :lol:

Everyone needs to just wait for it, there is a huge face palm coming.
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby Pinnacle on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:28 am

Heffay wrote:We need to police our own. We should be yelling about how this guy screwed up on many levels louder than the antis.

It's ok to admit when someone makes a mistake. It doesn't make your cause unjust. And it adds a level of personal commitment that you take your responsibilities seriously.


How about keeping quiet until the facts are in.
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George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby illbits on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:34 am

Pinnacle wrote:
Heffay wrote:We need to police our own. We should be yelling about how this guy screwed up on many levels louder than the antis.

It's ok to admit when someone makes a mistake. It doesn't make your cause unjust. And it adds a level of personal commitment that you take your responsibilities seriously.


How about keeping quiet until the facts are in.

Some days I wonder if Heffay is actually Joan Peterson posting with her pink unicorn hat on.
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby BemidjiDweller on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:29 pm

I haven't read the whole thread, but here is a part of the police report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/ ... Report.pdf
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Re: George Zimmerman - Florida Unarmed Teen Shooting

Postby Pezhead on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:33 pm

It took me awhile to read the whole thing, some of it I read on my phone. I wish I was a faster reader.
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