IT can happen to anyone....

[hammAR]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354149,00.html

Police Chief Shoots Self at Gun Training Session
Associated Press

RIVERDALE, Utah — The police chief in Riverdale accidentally shot himself in an ankle while demonstrating how to dislodge a jammed handgun.

Chief Dave Hansen was taken to McKay-Dee Hospital in Ogden for surgery.

The 54-year-old chief accidentally fired a gun during a training exercise inside a conference room at Riverdale police headquarters.

A fire captain and Riverdale Mayor Bruce Burrows confirmed the chief shot himself Saturday in an ankle bone. They said he was trying to fix a gun with a jammed round when the bullet fired.

Riverdale police officers carry .40-caliber pistols.

Hospital supervisor Rohn Larsen said Hansen was in stable condition Sunday. Larsen said he couldn't reveal which ankle — left or right — the chief shot.

A Weber County dispatcher said nobody from the Riverdale police department was available Sunday to release any information on the accident. A patrol officer on duty Sunday said he didn't know anything about it.

The chief's brother, a state lawmaker, said Hansen is a 23-year veteran and chief of the Riverdale police force since 2006.

Rep. Neil Hansen, D-Ogden, said he regularly goes target practicing with his brother and described him as safety-conscious.

"I've never seen him do anything reckless," Neil Hansen told the Standard-Examiner of Ogden.

[Andrew Rothman]

IT can happen to anyone....who is dumb enough to disregard the Four Rules.

There. Fixed if for ya.

[Widge]

Heh, what a tool.

[Fast351]

Only a fool would be overly confident in the fact that it can't happen to them.

It is a statistical certainty that if you shoot enough rounds, you will have a negligent discharge. Couple that with a 1/2 second of inattentiveness than can happen to anyone, and you can have disastrous results.

That comes not from me but from a 25 year firearms training veteran, who has just about every safety certification known to man, and is man enough to admit to two ADs. Of course he has more than 1 million rounds down range.

So go ahead and stick your head in the sand and say that it can't happen to you.

[DeanC]

As I said somewhere else:

You guys are missing the problem.

Here is the problem:

The 54-year-old chief accidentally fired a gun during a training exercise inside a conference room

This was not a mistake made on a hot range, he was trying to clear a jam (demonstrating jam clearing techniques?) with live ammo in a freaking conference room.

[Andrew Rothman]

Only a fool would be overly confident in the fact that it can't happen to them.

It is a statistical certainty that if you shoot enough rounds, you will have a negligent discharge.

<...>

So go ahead and stick your head in the sand and say that it can't happen to you.

Bullcrap. Nonsense. Poppycock.

I am SICK of hearing people talk about negligent discharges as if they are inevitable. They are not!

I mean, would you say, "There are only two kinds of pilots: those that have crashed, and those that will"? Insane.

If you're not prepared to take as much care with a deadly weapon as you would with a flying machine, you shouldn't touch `em.

Like the sign says, "Safety is no accident."

If fewer gun owners treated the rules as optional, there'd be fewer stupid-ass accidents with guns "going off" and we as a group would be -- and would thus be seen as -- more responsible.

Saying that it is inevitable only creates a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I have never had an ND, and I never will. That's not me with my head in the sand, that's me with my eyes wide open, and a single-minded determination to follow ALL of the safety rules, ALL the time.

If you don't have the same attitude, you don't belong anywhere near a gun.

[Fast351]

Bullcrap. Nonsense. Poppycock.

No, no. Please. Don't hold back. Let us know how you really feel. It adds so much to the conversation

I am SICK of hearing people talk about negligent discharges as if they are inevitable. They are not!

I mean, would you say, "There are only two kinds of pilots: those that have crashed, and those that will"? Insane.

If a 1/2 second of inattentiveness was enough to crash a plane, then yes, you fly enough miles, and you will crash.

If you're not prepared to take as much care with a deadly weapon as you would with a flying machine, you shouldn't touch `em.

Where did I say that I'm unprepared to do everything right? I'll await your quote...

If fewer gun owners treated the rules as optional, there'd be fewer stupid-ass accidents with guns "going off" and we as a group would be -- and would thus be seen as -- more responsible.

Again, where did I say the rules were optional? Quit putting words into my mouth.

I have never had an ND, and I never will.

Uh huh...

That's not me with my head in the sand, that's me with my eyes wide open, and a single-minded determination to follow ALL of the safety rules, ALL the time.

If you don't have the same attitude, you don't belong anywhere near a gun.

You're a firearms instructor right? Then I'm sure you've had students in your class that you felt required an extra watchful eye because they treat their gun like a beercan, paying less than full attention to the muzzle direction rule. You obviously feel those people "don't belong anywhere near a gun". You being the responsible, safety conscious, firearms instructor, immediately boot them off the range, because they don't belong anywhere near a gun, right?

I thought so.

[cobb]

For someone to say that they will never have a ND is someone in denial. We all do what we can to prevent it from happening, but it can happen to anyone and that is why we follow the basic safety rules when handling a firearm.

So point a gun at someone, go ahead, you know it is empty, you know you will never have a ND, so the practice of pointing a gun a someone is a perfectly safe practice, right?

You never say never and you never say always.

[BRIT_in_the_weeds]

JOEY MOOZ

[Andrew Rothman]

For someone to say that they will never have a ND is someone in denial.

To say that negligence is not preventable is dangerous.

So point a gun at someone, go ahead, you know it is empty, you know you will never have a ND, so the practice of pointing a gun a someone is a perfectly safe practice, right?

What an incredible twisting -- nearly 180 degrees -- of what I said.

You're a firearms instructor right? Then I'm sure you've had students in your class that you felt required an extra watchful eye because they treat their gun like a beercan, paying less than full attention to the muzzle direction rule. You obviously feel those people "don't belong anywhere near a gun". You being the responsible, safety conscious, firearms instructor, immediately boot them off the range, because they don't belong anywhere near a gun, right?

More bull$hit. Some people need an education -- that's why they take a class -- and they sure as hell don't hear, "Go ahead and try to be safe, but there's nothing you can do about it: you'll fail."

Oh, and students who treat the gun like a beer can? They do get kicked off the range. And they fail the class. They've heard the safety rules, and if they can't even try to obey them in class, they don't pass.

Negligent discharges are 100% preventable. They are not inevitable, and treating them as if they were INCREASES the danger.

[cobb]

OK, after thinking about it and not sure what the answer is for all, can someone explain to me what a ND is?

This may vary from person to person, depending on where they draw the line.

I was shooting a pin match, must have been over 10 years ago and I was shooting a 686 revolver. So the buzzer goes off, I shoot one pin off, I shoot the second pin off and as I was moving my sights to the third pin, the gun fired just before my sights were on the third pin, so the round went between the pins. Now I would have to say that the gun fired when I had not intended it to fire, I was taking up the slack in the double action as I was moving from pin to pin and I took up too much slack before I made it to the third pin. Again, the fired shot went between the pins into the back stop, the muzzle wasn't elevated, nothing unsafe, but for those that have seen me shoot my rhythm at a pin shoot could tell that third shot was a little quicker than the others.

So is that a ND?

[BRIT_in_the_weeds]

It did'nt hit you in the ankle..................................SAFE!

[cobb]

For someone to say that they will never have a ND is someone in denial.

To say that negligence is not preventable is dangerous.

No, for someone to be so arrogant, and I am making that a broad and general statement, but for someone to be so arrogant as to say that they will never have a ND, that my friend is very dangerous situation and an accident waiting to happen. This is the arrogance that we all see from some law enforcement officers, they are the professional and the only one in the room professional enough to (BANG).............you all know where this is going.

So point a gun at someone, go ahead, you know it is empty, you know you will never have a ND, so the practice of pointing a gun a someone is a perfectly safe practice, right?

What an incredible twisting -- nearly 180 degrees -- of what I said

Not really. I know we have all seen it, someone waving around a gun and saying it is OK, it is empty. Or they declare that they have been shooting for 20 years, have never had and never will have a firearm related accident. So is that over confidence, ignorance or denial?

Negligent discharges are 100% preventable.

Yes, here we agree 100%.

But one of the first steps in preventing a ND is to admitting it can happen and then taking all the necessary steps, including the recognition of the possibility. To proclaim they will not happen because a person believes they are super safe, that to me is a person in denial and dangerous situation.

[Andrew Rothman]

So is that a ND?

Fair point. Precisely speaking, shooting at the target an instant before you intend to is an ND. However, with all four rules followed, it's a no-harm-no-foul ND of the most technical sort.

In more realistic terms, let's call an ND an event where you shoot or shoot at or toward something or someone that shouldn't get shot -- a "malum in se" offense, not a technical violation.

[cobb]

So is that a ND?

Fair point. Precisely speaking, shooting at the target an instant before you intend to is an ND. However, with all four rules followed, it's a no-harm-no-foul ND of the most technical sort.

In more realistic terms, let's call an ND an event where you shoot or shoot at or toward something or someone that shouldn't get shot -- a "malum in se" offense, not a technical violation.

That is what I would like to clarify. Some may have a much broader definition of what a ND is.