*Serious* Selling firearms w/o license for profit

[xd ED]

In my world, somewhere between buying 1, 2, or 6 different guns, taking them home, cleaning and shooting them for a few months, then selling off most, and buying a couple more, vs. acquiring a group of 10 identical receivers with sequential numbers, and selling them off simultaneously- there exists a line. The exact location of that line might well depend on historic activity, and who's making the call. Not being one to push the envelope, I would behave like the hobbyist as opposed to a parking lot dealer, unless I was a FFL.
Especially as pointed out- the profit isn't going to be there in this case.

I always thought the gun show loophole was a made up term( assault weapon'/ 'cop killer bullets' etc.) to create the appearance that an FFL at his table was somehow less legit than a brick and mortar shop.

One has to hope his government has the ability to recognize it has better things to do than to meddle in his hobbies.

[Holland&Holland]

There is an unlicensed individual from the Bloomington/Savage/Shakopee area that has been ordering PSA & ECG (Palmetto State Armory & East Coast Guns) AR-15 lower receivers in bulk & reselling them on Armslist.com. He specifically indicates he is 'not a dealer' & 'has sold xx amount'. I assume he is using an FFL services in the aforementioned areas for the initial transfer. A customer came into the office today & brought it to my attention. Anyway, whoever the unlicensed individual is, they have no idea how fooked they are. It is a serious fed crime for dealing in firearms without a license. The ATF will eventually audit the FFL where the transfers took place; see that "Joe Blow/eric holder" ordered & transferred all these lowers. They'll proceed to make photo copies of the bound book, knock on the transferree's door, shoot their dog(s) & ..... They will then ask him/her to produce the lower receivers on-site. Obviously he/she won't be able to. BOOM!!!

I personally couldn't care less what this person is doing, as I am not the BATFE, but he obviously has no idea how bad he has fooked himself. There simply is no way out of it unless they were able to track down 9 out of 10 buyers & buy them back. For further proof, read his for-sale ads & you can see how oblivious he is to the laws & regs:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/432489/bl ... and-new---
http://www.armslist.com/posts/425604/bl ... -last-one-

I am a steadfast atheist, but may God help his soul.....ignorance is not an excuse.

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

[rugersol]

I always thought the gun show loophole was a made up term( assault weapon'/ 'cop killer bullets' etc.) to create the appearance that an FFL at his table was somehow less legit than a brick and mortar shop.

It was my understanding that an FFL is req'd to do a NICS for every sale ... at a show, or not.

However, an FFL is not req'd to sell a gun, at a show.

"Gunshow loophole" may likely be a made-up term ... but I'm not aware of another which might better describe the situation? ... negative connotations, not withstanding!

[yuppiejr]

An interesting case from Seattle that seems to give some clarification as to "the line" according to the ATF in other cases which seems to be someone who purchases firearms and flips them for a profit within a short time is "dealing illegally." Someone who owns a firearm (or firearms) as part of their personal collection and later sells/trades (see the FS/FT forum here) it does not seem to be in the same boat.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... 364167.php

According to court documents filed in the case, the men were selling the guns under a provision in federal gun law allowing “private sellers” to sell their guns without submitting sales paperwork to the ATF. Anyone “engaging in the business” of firearms sales is required to obtain a Federal Firearms License.

“It became obvious that many of these private sellers were in the business of selling firearms and not simply selling guns from their private collection,” an ATF special agent told the court.

In court documents, the ATF agent contended Skiles told an undercover agent at a May 2010 gun show in Puyallup that he buys used guns from a licensed dealer and resells them at gun shows.

<snip>

"In a press statement issued Monday, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Seattle described the sales conducted by Skiles and the other men as going beyond the activities allowed under law.

“In the instances described in the indictment and other court documents, the guns were held by the seller for a very brief period of time – days or weeks – and then were sold at gun shows,” the spokeswoman said. “The guns never became part of any ‘collection.’

“By claiming they were only participating in ‘private party’ sales, these sellers avoided filing paperwork related to the gun sales.”

More info on the case:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/ ... php#page-1

[photogpat]

I think the line is crossed when you acquire a firearm or a receiver for the sole purpose of reselling it.

It's up top the prosecution (ATF) to prove intent....but I'd say acquiring and disposing of a quantity of lower receivers in a relatively short period of time is probably "intent". IANAL of course.

I'm nearly 99% certain that this guy isn't the only one to be doing this so close to an election...just a very blatant example of it.

[yuppiejr]

I think the line is crossed when you acquire a firearm or a receiver for the sole purpose of reselling it.

It's up top the prosecution (ATF) to prove intent....but I'd say acquiring and disposing of a quantity of lower receivers in a relatively short period of time is probably "intent". IANAL of course.

I'm nearly 99% certain that this guy isn't the only one to be doing this so close to an election...just a very blatant example of it.

Seems like that's the ATF's take as well, though I doubt they are going to chase down some poor sap who picked up an extra lower or two for a project they didn't complete and decided to liquidate it out of their gun safe while the market is good.

And for those of you who've asked, no, it's not me.... like many of you I only lose money moving items out of my own collection after poorly considered impulse purchases to fund further impulse purchases which isn't much argument for "running a business" unless you compare it with something like the US Post Office.

[Dante]

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

It's the ATF -- it's what they do.

[Holland&Holland]

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

It's the ATF -- it's what they do.

And FFLs who are not pro-gun rights are not who I support.

[Pinnacle]

There is an unlicensed individual from the Bloomington/Savage/Shakopee area that has been ordering PSA & ECG (Palmetto State Armory & East Coast Guns) AR-15 lower receivers in bulk & reselling them on Armslist.com. He specifically indicates he is 'not a dealer' & 'has sold xx amount'. I assume he is using an FFL services in the aforementioned areas for the initial transfer. A customer came into the office today & brought it to my attention. Anyway, whoever the unlicensed individual is, they have no idea how fooked they are. It is a serious fed crime for dealing in firearms without a license. The ATF will eventually audit the FFL where the transfers took place; see that "Joe Blow/eric holder" ordered & transferred all these lowers. They'll proceed to make photo copies of the bound book, knock on the transferree's door, shoot their dog(s) & ..... They will then ask him/her to produce the lower receivers on-site. Obviously he/she won't be able to. BOOM!!!

I personally couldn't care less what this person is doing, as I am not the BATFE, but he obviously has no idea how bad he has fooked himself. There simply is no way out of it unless they were able to track down 9 out of 10 buyers & buy them back. For further proof, read his for-sale ads & you can see how oblivious he is to the laws & regs:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/432489/bl ... and-new---
http://www.armslist.com/posts/425604/bl ... -last-one-

I am a steadfast atheist, but may God help his soul.....ignorance is not an excuse.

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

Holland, there is nothing wrong with his post... This person is indeed breaking the law by "Engaging in the Trade" without the proper licensing, and making transfer either legally, or illegally (I am not going to give an opinion on this issue.)

If you do buy something from this guy, who is OPENLY flaunting his exploits with brekaing the law, you are a taking a serious risk. A LEGAL hand to hand between people that are not disqualified to buy sell or trade is one thing - it is another alltogether to buy in bulk and advertise a registered piece on the internet...

What Tromix is pointing out is not that he is pissed about this guy denting into his business, but on the other hand, someone that you shouldn't do business with. Trust me when I tell you it is smarter to do it right the first time and use an FFL - if nothing else to cover your own butt.

This isn't about shooting this guys dog... Tromix IMHO is 100% right in posting this and warning folks.

Like I said, hand to hands are legal and ok - Engaging in the trade without a license is another matter alltogether.

[LarryFlew]

One has to hope his government has the ability to recognize it has better things to do than to meddle in his hobbies.

Doesn't that fall under the hope in one hand and xxx in the other................ TOO much hope needed for me to believe that one. This is our government we are talking about isn't it?

[Holland&Holland]

There is an unlicensed individual from the Bloomington/Savage/Shakopee area that has been ordering PSA & ECG (Palmetto State Armory & East Coast Guns) AR-15 lower receivers in bulk & reselling them on Armslist.com. He specifically indicates he is 'not a dealer' & 'has sold xx amount'. I assume he is using an FFL services in the aforementioned areas for the initial transfer. A customer came into the office today & brought it to my attention. Anyway, whoever the unlicensed individual is, they have no idea how fooked they are. It is a serious fed crime for dealing in firearms without a license. The ATF will eventually audit the FFL where the transfers took place; see that "Joe Blow/eric holder" ordered & transferred all these lowers. They'll proceed to make photo copies of the bound book, knock on the transferree's door, shoot their dog(s) & ..... They will then ask him/her to produce the lower receivers on-site. Obviously he/she won't be able to. BOOM!!!

I personally couldn't care less what this person is doing, as I am not the BATFE, but he obviously has no idea how bad he has fooked himself. There simply is no way out of it unless they were able to track down 9 out of 10 buyers & buy them back. For further proof, read his for-sale ads & you can see how oblivious he is to the laws & regs:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/432489/bl ... and-new---
http://www.armslist.com/posts/425604/bl ... -last-one-

I am a steadfast atheist, but may God help his soul.....ignorance is not an excuse.

There is much wrong with this post.

Hmm, funny, I listen all day long to contractors who did not win a bid. Your post has tones of an FFL who feels that he is at a disadvantage to this competition and it is affecting his pocket book. And why is it that they need to shoot his dogs?

Holland, there is nothing wrong with his post... This person is indeed breaking the law by "Engaging in the Trade" without the proper licensing, and making transfer either legally, or illegally (I am not going to give an opinion on this issue.)

If you do buy something from this guy, who is OPENLY flaunting his exploits with brekaing the law, you are a taking a serious risk. A LEGAL hand to hand between people that are not disqualified to buy sell or trade is one thing - it is another alltogether to buy in bulk and advertise a registered piece on the internet...

What Tromix is pointing out is not that he is pissed about this guy denting into his business, but on the other hand, someone that you shouldn't do business with. Trust me when I tell you it is smarter to do it right the first time and use an FFL - if nothing else to cover your own butt.

This isn't about shooting this guys dog... Tromix IMHO is 100% right in posting this and warning folks.

Like I said, hand to hands are legal and ok - Engaging in the trade without a license is another matter alltogether.

Sorry, I do not by that he is posting this as a public service. I see it as a vendor who sees his pocket book getting cut into by another source and griping about it. That grates me, it just does. Maybe if he worded it a bit less harshly about that they are going to break his door down, shoot his dog, and BOOM (don't know how we are supposed to interperet that comment) I may feel a bit less hackles raised. Where some see a warning, I see a vendor trying to gain an edge.

I also feel that there are current regulation and practices in place by the ATF that are not right. I am not a lawyer so I will refrain from calling them unconstitutinal. I see nothing wrong with someone who purchases property and then decides to sell it and turns a prophit. The fact that my rights to do that are being infringed, grate me.

Personally, I have not purchased a lower from this person and have no intention of doing so. That said to state it in such a manner is suspect. A better posting might have been.

This guy is buying and reselling a large quantity of lowers as a non-ffl. I am an FFL and my interperatiation of the law is such... While I am not a lawyer and not qualified to supply legal advice I wanted to warn others about this as it is a local source.

[ijosef]

I bought a couple of firearms from an old dude who was pretty much a dealer without an FFL, dealing out of his condo. I was largely ignorant about guns and let him take me to the cleaners in terms of price (I was ignorant - buyer beware), and he even mentioned that he'd be hassled about being a dealer before. He was adamant that he was just a "collector."

[Pinnacle]

I think that the OP (Tromix) is trying to say that this guy is running a serious risk of getting his door kicked in and all that comes with that. I have seen the ATF in action like this - not pretty.

While I certainly respect your opinion, and there is nothing wrong with it... You have to be careful of who you do business with especially with regulated commodities - constitutional or not it is the law of the land. I think that is the point of the post...

[Holland&Holland]

He was adamant that he was just a "collector."

An how do you know he was not? Why do we allow ourselves to be villinized by society? Just because it is a firearm that is our passion? If we were into beanie babies, bought them at a good price and resold them no-one would we clammering for our heads.

[Holland&Holland]

I think that the OP (Tromix) is trying to say that this guy is running a serious risk of getting his door kicked in and all that comes with that. I have seen the ATF in action like this - not pretty.

While I certainly respect your opinion, and there is nothing wrong with it... You have to be careful of who you do business with especially with regulated commodities - constitutional or not it is the law of the land. I think that is the point of the post...

That is true. Not right in my opinion, but true unfortunatly.