New pup for pheasants

[stormhawk]

Just got a English Setter pup, anyone have suggestions for starting getting him
used to shooting so he doesn't get gunshy?

[Bulldawg]

Take your dog to the range day.

[LarryFlew]

Just got a English Setter pup, anyone have suggestions for starting getting him
used to shooting so he doesn't get gunshy?

LOTS of load noises of any kind. Pots and pans etc. The more the better. Then cap gun and then................

[smurfman]

Whatever you do, do not take it to the range as a starter. This is one of the very worst ways of introducing a dog to gunfire. Gunshyness is created by the handler more often than not. It is something that is not easily cured if ever.

My suggestion is to join the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association http://www.navhda.org. The MN chapters are pretty large and active giving you a lot of opportunity for hands on, in person, help. I know of a couple very knowledgable members in your area whom would be great resources.

As for doing it on your own, the way I have done it with the dozen or so dogs I've owned has been thus:
Wait until the dog is confident enough to venture 15-20 yards or more from you. Use a blank pistol with the small crimped balnks, not the full sized blanks nor the nail gun blanks. Place the gun behindyou and, when the dog is moving away and distracted, fire off one shot. DO NOT even look at the dog, keep doing as you were as if nothing happened. Whatever happens, do not acknowleddge the dog or that you noticed any reaction on the dog. You want the pup to think loudish noises going off at random is a normal state of affairs and not something to be concerned with. by giving the dog any sort of attention after firing, for whatever reason, youa re encouraging the dog to respond to the noise in some manner. A smart dog will soon pick up that a fearful reaction gets more attention than one that is not creating a "gunshy" dog.

If the dog acts fearful and/or runs to you for protection/support, giving this action any sort of recognition only encourages further such response. Just keep moving and pay the pup no further attention. If the dog showed little concern, let it run around for a few more minutes and try again. If the pup was hesitant or fearful, stop and give the dog a few few days before trying again. Stop for this training session and give the dog some more free time. If you can do this twice a day, say morning and night, that would be good.


After a week or so, when the dog pays no attention to the light blank, switch to a louder blank and repeat. If the dog still shows little concern, go to a swmall bore shotgun and repeat. Work up from a distance and get closer as the dog suggest.

I don't combine birds and guns as a bad experience with one can register for both with the dog. It is hard enough to correct one problem let alone two. I also like using an older, more experienced dog to these sessions as it can have a calming influence on the pup. the pup will also take its cues from the older dog and, if the dog is well trained and mannered, can help shorten this process.

Again, the best suggestion is to join a training club. This will be the best use of resources you can do.

[stesch_s10]

Read it from front to back. Repeat. Then start training.

[smurfman]

Read it from front to back. Repeat. Then start training.

Though there are similarities in many areas, the OP may find a book pertaining to pointing dogs to be a much better guide than one for retrievers. I personally reach for the NAVHDA "Green Book" the most but Bob Wehle's "Wing & Shot", Larry Mueller's "Speed Train Your Bird Dog", Ken Roebuck's "Gun Dog Training- Pointing Dogs" are a few I also refer to on a regular basis. these are not all my training books, just those I use the most often. Then there are the many videos and DVDs on pointer training put out by Gun Dog Magazine.
One will soon find they end up with several training sources as, like school teachers, some will be easier to understand on some points than others. No matter which source(s) you use, having someone able to give you hands on help allow you to flatten the learning curve a great extent. Joining a training club is the best means as not only do you get advice and help, you will also be able to borrow or rent equipment that will be helpful in your training.

[grousemaster]

First of all, you got the right breed. Secondly, DO NOT EXPOSE HIM TO THE GUN RANGE or any other loud noises without premeditated association. If you want to start him on loud noises make sure the noise is experienced during something pleasurable, like getting a treat.....

Also, never mind the NAVDA recommendation above. Setters are not versatile dogs. Cover dog/FDSB stuff is what you're after. Setters do not fall into the same category as retrievers or versatile dogs. For example, cover dog trials do not judge a retrieve, (and setters are not natural retrievers), so why would you want to waste a bunch of time on retrieving/blind retrieves?

Setters are true bird dogs/pointing dogs....they excel at covering ground (only an English pointer is even in the same atmosphere) and "setting" birds once they hit the scent cone, the field bred ones tend to work at about 100mph in most cases, slamming to a halt when they make game. Nothing against the versatile breeds, but they tend to do everything that a hound/retriever/pointer can do....but not as good as the specialized breeds when it comes to each individual skill. I have extensive experience with setters and will help if needed....


Where did you get the pup? (if you don't ind me asking)

[stormhawk]

I got him from Doug Ransom "Ransom Farms" in Decorah Ia. And I agree with training him more as a cover dog, the NAVDA would have some good info but I'm not worried about the water training and can get the media I want from there store.I reallize that taking him to the range right away is the worst I can do, I currently have a 7 yr old English that has awesome instincts but has been really gunshy since I got him at 9 mos old from the humane society.

[stormhawk]

Also to Smurfman you do have a lot of good recommendationsand I appreciate that input I am looking to train him as a cover dog mainly cause pheasant, grouse and such are what we will ne mainly hunting which is where his potential is greatest.

[stesch_s10]

Read it from front to back. Repeat. Then start training.

Though there are similarities in many areas, the OP may find a book pertaining to pointing dogs to be a much better guide than one for retrievers. I personally reach for the NAVHDA "Green Book" the most but Bob Wehle's "Wing & Shot", Larry Mueller's "Speed Train Your Bird Dog", Ken Roebuck's "Gun Dog Training- Pointing Dogs" are a few I also refer to on a regular basis. these are not all my training books, just those I use the most often. Then there are the many videos and DVDs on pointer training put out by Gun Dog Magazine.
One will soon find they end up with several training sources as, like school teachers, some will be easier to understand on some points than others. No matter which source(s) you use, having someone able to give you hands on help allow you to flatten the learning curve a great extent. Joining a training club is the best means as not only do you get advice and help, you will also be able to borrow or rent equipment that will be helpful in your training.

Very true. A pointing dog book would be a better fit.

[stesch_s10]

Read it from front to back. Repeat. Then start training.

Though there are similarities in many areas, the OP may find a book pertaining to pointing dogs to be a much better guide than one for retrievers. I personally reach for the NAVHDA "Green Book" the most but Bob Wehle's "Wing & Shot", Larry Mueller's "Speed Train Your Bird Dog", Ken Roebuck's "Gun Dog Training- Pointing Dogs" are a few I also refer to on a regular basis. these are not all my training books, just those I use the most often. Then there are the many videos and DVDs on pointer training put out by Gun Dog Magazine.
One will soon find they end up with several training sources as, like school teachers, some will be easier to understand on some points than others. No matter which source(s) you use, having someone able to give you hands on help allow you to flatten the learning curve a great extent. Joining a training club is the best means as not only do you get advice and help, you will also be able to borrow or rent equipment that will be helpful in your training.

Very true. A pointing dog book would be a better fit.

[grousemaster]

Jerry Kolter at North Woods Bird Dogs or Steve Grossman up at Little Moran hunt club would be my two top choices for cover dog info/training.

For intro to gun fire get some wings or just treats, have your buddy stand about 50-100 yards away with a .22 and then a shotgun with light loads....throw the wing or a treat simultaneously with the gun fire....

[smurfman]

I have no idea why the so called "versatile breed" training would not work, it works very well for the half dozen setters as well as the Pointer I have owned. The idea of a bird dog NOT retrieving is totally foreign to me, it is the most important reason for owning a bird dog. As so much of MN pheasant hunting takes place in or around swamps and other areas of water, the ability to retrieve from water is also fairly important. At least I have no wish to go swimming after a rooster that has been knocked down in late October onward. Setters can be very good for lighter duty waterfowl too, I had one which even learned to dive after cripples. I wouldn't run them against a Lab or Chessie for running down crippled, late season, big water bluebills but up to deer season mine did just fine from teal to Canadas.

The same goes for the search for a bird, it is no different between versatiles and the other pointing breeds. The same degree of cooperation is needed and one introduces birds and reinforces the point the same for both. The great thing with NAVHDA is there are a large number of members in the state and they are pretty well scattered around. There are a couple in your immediate area that I know of. This gives you the possibility of close help which may be more than one will find from some other organizations. After all, St James is a hike from Staples where Steve is located (though it may be worth a drive or two, Steve is a good trainer from personal experience). Sandstone where Jerry and Betsy are locted is even further though in top notch grouse and wodcock territory. I know them somewhat though not nearly as well as Steve. As good of a resource as these people can be, it can't be matched by someone knowledgeable who may live only minutes away. There are a number of formal and informal training sessions put together by NAVHDA members, often on an at least weekly basis, for a very nominal fee. For the price of just gas for one trip to Little Moran you can probably go a whole summer closer. And many of the members are as knowledgeable or nearly so as the above trainers, definitely more than capable to get you well started on the right track with your pup.

Too, there are many members of NAVHDA who have setters and Pointers instead of or in addition to the versatile breeds so you will not be a loner in the group. The last time I looked it seemed about half the people at the training sessions had a "white dog" in tow. One does not have to train to the level of what NAVHDA does but any setter or pointer can do this with no problem and one will end up with a dog that does very well in the field, even at the Natural Ability level. Getting to the Utility level is not all that hard either and a blind water search for a duck is not any different than the same thing on land plus it is a good conditioning during the warm months. The dog may not see every bird go down, especially those which sail off, and the ability to "hunt dead" is as important with a setter as a wirehair. My setters all had Utility Prizes hung on them, two ran in the Versatile Championship though did not prize. That was my fault, not the dogs', as I was deficient in my training for the one and conditioning for the other. As I used my setters for light duty waterfowl in addition to upland game, the desire for them to be comfortable in the water was needed. It sure helped with pheasants, grouse, woodcock, snipe, rails, dove, and other brds which may be shot around water and don't always cooperate by falling on dry land.

[grousemaster]

Smurfman,


If retrieving is the most important factor for you, then I would not recommend a setter, lots of good options for retrievers out there....

I was at a weekend grouse dog training seminar with Steve up in Staples a few weeks ago, lots of good info...but he doesn't do ANY retrieving work with cover dogs....and never does even with the "finished product". The versatile and retrievers are different of course, as far as the training involved.

I assume you do the forced fetch with your setters to? I've walked into a slough or two after a dead bird . That's what I get for preferring my setters to "point dead".

[smurfman]

I've owned and used spaniels, retrievers, and pointers over the years, I have a pretty good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. Pointing dogs are my preference today as I do mostly upland hunting and what waterfowling I do is easily handled by my setters and wirehairs. I mostly train with NAVHDA members as there are many of them nearby and there are training sessions twice a week someplace within easy driving distance. Whether a "versatile" or only a pointer, the ideas, practices, and techniques behind bird work are exactly the same. What works for a versatile dog works for a pointer and vice versa. One does not have to train for water work if they don't want to and many in NAVHDA don't as they do not hunt waterfowl. Even so, their dogs generally end up in the water as the owners soon see the benefits for hunting as well as for summer time conditioning and for the dog's comfort.

Bringing shot game to hand is the most important function of a dog and I would think that would be the same goal for all hunters. Finding birds is a secondary requirement in comparison to the previous. A dog which will reliably retrieve only increases the experience as it greatly reduces the number of lost birds. For upland situations a pointing dog can do this as well as a retriever or flusher. I've owned spaniels, retrievers, and pointers over the years and pointers fit my needs and desires the best today. I guess one could go the old fashioned route of using a pointing dog to find birds and then turn loose a spaniel to do the flushing and retrieving but many can't house multiple dogs and a lot fewer can handle the divergent training needed for such a team to work at its best. I would love to do that but I know my limitations and am not willing to put in th time and effort to get to that point. Even then the pointer will be expected to retrieve if needed.

I have known Steve off and on for a couple of decades, he is a good trainer but we part ways on the idea of pointers needing to retrieve. I feel he is more into some competitions that do not even require the bird to be shot than hunting which may influence his ideas. I have no idea what he does when a bird is knocked down but in my own hunting I have had enough birds fall into or across lakes, rivers, streams, ditches, ponds, etc that I can't count on me always being able to wade to them. It is hard enough slogging through a marsh in knee high rubber boots, I refuse to do it wearing chest waders and even then I would have lost many birds.

I do force break my dogs, I have done it with all of them, retrievers and pointers alike. There is no such thing as a "natural" retriever, at some point they will all refuse a retrieve if not trained otherwise. Some will reach this point before others but they will all do so at some point in time. Force breaking is also an obedience reinforcement and there is a much stronger bond between dog and handler if completed properly. It is roughly the difference of the dog retrieving because the retrieve makes the dog happy vs the dog making the retrieve to make itself happy because you are happy. In the first instance there will be a time or times when the dog says, "To heck with it," and find not making the retrieve to be more pleasant than the alternative. In the second, the dog makes the retrieve because it is not happy unless you are happy and will make the retrieve regardless what the dog may want to do. Afterall, the dog wanting to make the handler happy is the cornerstone of dog training.