Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

[rugersol]

Police = Civilians --- just so we're all clear on the terminology.

so I can start arresting, and shooting people?!

[photogpat]

Police = Civilians --- just so we're all clear on the terminology.

so I can start arresting, and shooting people?!

IANAL, BUT if you so choose, you're able to make a citizens arrest...and if you're in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm are able to respond to that threat with force.

Seems to me to be the same rules of engagement. Now, if there ends up being preferential treatment of the officers in this case, or any other officer-involved shooting....then I think you and I are in agreement thats BS, amiright?

[Spike]

According to CNN:

"All nine people injured in Friday's shooting in front of the Empire State Building were wounded by police gunfire, New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told reporters Saturday."

[tman]

mostly, that's jest a colloquialism I like to use, now 'n then!

I know it is. I just picked on you... because.

... but now, having seen the video, them cops got no business carrying guns!i

...

the guy was firing at no one ... 'til Fife showed up! ... and then, only at Fife! ... either be prepared to take cover, or wait for a better opportunity ... firing at civilians should never be an acceptable option!

Seriously? Don't try apprehend a person who just MURDERED someone? Give him a chance to shoot more people? Did you see how quickly that gun came out of his briefcase?

that said, at that range, how could they possibly miss?!

I can thankfully say I've never been in a gunfight like that, and can't tell you why they might have missed.

Police = Civilians --- just so we're all clear on the terminology.

Just so we ARE clear on the terminology, here's a little Webster's for ya.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilians

2 a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force

[Snowgun]

This shooting will go down in history as the PRIME example why accuracy training, especially with speed and under duress, is crucial. ESPECIALLY FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT. After this the whole "qualify with 50 rounds per year" nonsense will change. I believe the other recorded incident that Ayoob and others point to of bystanders getting hit during an gunfight also involved the Cops.

Is it unbelievable that cops struck a bystander in this incident? NO. But 8? Come on. Their tactics also sucked ass. They got stacked up in a line, didn't have their guns out and on target or at least at low ready, got totally surprised by a dude who was just reported to have executed someone pull a gun on them.

Cops have a ******* job, but it is a disservice that their organization doesn't require better shooting training, for their sake as well as others. I'm thankful the MN police have a large number of officers who go above and beyond in their training, and even are on the top of the competition circuit around here. Maybe if NYC wasn't so communist about gun control and promoted gun proficiency, many bystanders wouldn't have had their day ruined.

NYPD is SOO lucky that they didn't kill someone, or they would have had the higher bodycount! Imagine the headlines:

Gunman kills coworker, police go on mass shooting spree!

[rugersol]

I presume ya otherwise found my other points ( that ya chose not to quote ) somewhat valid?!

And ya, do NOT try to apprehend a murder suspect WHEN no one else is in imminent danger ... but would be, if ya chose to approach/pursue!!!

[rugersol]

Their tactics also sucked ass.

+∞³

... and if yer gonna rush a guy, RUSH him ... WTF was that tippy toe ****?!

if they had believed anyone was in danger, the guns shoulda been out already ... they CLEARLY ****ed up!!! ... why's everyone so amped up to defend 'em?!

[tizzo]

Is there a reason the cop on the right was shooting strong hand only!?

[tman]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/

Three victims suffered gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments.

Does that mean it's only 1/3 as bad as it sounds?

[rugersol]

Is there a reason the cop on the right was shooting strong hand only!?

probly seen it on TV!

[tman]

Is there a reason the cop on the right was shooting strong hand only!?

It's a normal stress reaction, especially when one is moving, and the police need to train to it.

I don't shoot one-handed nearly enough.

[Pat Cannon]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/

Three victims suffered gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments.

Does that mean it's only 1/3 as bad as it sounds?

Whoever said, "The first report is always wrong," was right.

[Snowgun]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/

Three victims suffered gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments.

Does that mean it's only 1/3 as bad as it sounds?

So it doesn't count if it's a ricochet? It's still a GSW due to rounds being discharged off target.

Hey, I don't put the majority of blame on these two officers who were charged with bringing down a gunman in the middle of the city. As Demming said, we don't have people problems, we have SYSTEM problems. These police and their performance in this situation were the product of their system. They should be just as pissed about their lack of training as everyone else is. You got to give people the tools to do their jobs.

[Snowgun]

Is there a reason the cop on the right was shooting strong hand only!?

It's a normal stress reaction, especially when one is moving, and the police need to train to it.

I don't shoot one-handed nearly enough.

This is an interesting discussion.

It's been found in competition (which is the only real way to quantitatively compare and measure such things), that shooting one hand is neither more accurate, nor faster, in any situation or position, and that includes running. Therefore, there is NO reason to ever shoot with one hand unless you are either physically impaired, or it is physically impossible to put the gun on target with two hands. (There is also the aspect of CQC where you shoot point blank from retention directly from holster, but this is it's only special case and the gun typically is moving to a two handed grip anyway).

Therefore while it is always a good idea to practice shooting strong hand or weak hand, you should NEVER train to go to that configuration by default, as it has been shown to be inferior in all aspects.

[ktech]

...there is NO reason to ever shoot with one hand unless you are either physically impaired, or it is physically impossible to put the gun on target with two hands.

I don't think you understood tman's comment - this is a common stress reaction, and is not an intentional tactic. Many people involved in shootings simply default to using their dominant hand alone, even those who have trained only using 2 handed techniques.