Multiple people shot outside Empire State Building

[gyrfalcon]

...there is NO reason to ever shoot with one hand unless you are either physically impaired, or it is physically impossible to put the gun on target with two hands.

Generally agreed, but that's the problem with generalities.

It was an awful situation for them to be in, and I hope everyone involved recovers fully from this horrible incident.

I wouldn't hope that. If those two dead people fully recover it'll probably result in the next zombie apocalypse or the second coming of Christ. Thanks for having a big heart though.

[bstrawse]

Has anyone noticed how quiet mayor anti-gun has been since it was his boys that did the mass shooting?

In fact I haven't heard anything from the usual gun grabbers screaming for more gun control.

Well Joan and Protect MN have been bleating / but thats nothing new....

[jshuberg]

That's fantastic. I would like to know how you can tell they haven't had enough training based on the video.
(You could always say "I'm sorry, you're right, I have no idea whether they had adequate training or not. It was an awful situation for them to be in, and I hope everyone involved recovers fully from this horrible incident.")

It's real easy for me to critique their actions on the video from the safety of my couch, and I understand that it's not fair for me to do so since I wasn't there. It's quite possible that they have had plenty of training, and that for whatever reason it all went bye-bye in that critical moment. I don't claim to have the answers, but for whatever reason the cops involved did make several mistakes that put both themselves and innocent bystanders in danger. The fact that several people were inadvertently shot is evidence of this.

It was an awful situation, and I do hope everyone involved recovers fully. I don't blame the cops involved for the injuries that resulted from the shooting, since they were not the instigators. However, I do believe that NYPD should review the effectiveness of their training program in light of this incident, and make any changes necessary to better prepare their officers for this kind of situation in the future.

It may have been that the stress of the situation was high enough that it overcame their training, or that they simply didn't have sufficient training for this type of situation. The fact that the guy was able to get his weapon out of his briefcase and pointed at the officers before they even started to unholster theirs tends to make me think it was lack of training more than stress. This is just my opinion though, and I recognize that it might be wrong.

[Snowgun]

yea, I thought that might be the case, but all that means is that one hasn't REALLY been trained very well in two handed techniques.

You should start training the military. Last time I checked, less than 100% of people perform exactly how they were "trained" in their first firefight. It sounds like you could fix that deficiency and help the US to field a much more effective fighting force.

Holy ****! you are right! Why **** train at all? I bet you wish you would have not even been shown what end the bullets came out of before you dropped into Normandy. Training is Retarded! Why shoot for a higher standard? You should hold a god damn press conference and save taxpayers some money!

I don't want to second guess the cops, but it's pretty apparent from the video that they hadn't trained enough to operate their weapons properly

Spoken like a true operator.

Of course! Those cops obviously were at the peak of their game due to the renown NYPD gun training program, on par with seal team 6, and NOTHING could have increased their performance. Apparently fracking 9 people while taking down a target 10 feet away is the new standard. Thank god hefster brought us back to earth on this one.

[Snowgun]

...there is NO reason to ever shoot with one hand unless you are either physically impaired, or it is physically impossible to put the gun on target with two hands.

Generally agreed, but that's the problem with generalities.

Touche, You got me there bro. If only the dude would have stood still for 2 minutes, and the cops were shooting .22 cal space guns.

[jshuberg]

Perhaps my terminology is causing confusion. For clarification this is what I mean when I use these terms:

Knowledge: Information that you've memorized. Your logical mind knows the information, but it often lacks context or first hand experience - book smarts.

Practice: Taking your knowledge and acting on it. Learning how to apply it to real-world activities. Thinking about what you're doing, analyzing yourself, and applying your knowledge to your actions to become better.

Training: Performing the actions that you have practiced repetitively without thinking about them, or more specifically, while thinking of something else entirely. Reinforcing these actions under stressful or disorienting conditions. This teaches your subconscious how to perform an activity that you've consciously practiced.

When you train on something, you're programming your subconscious to be able to perform the actions without any conscious effort at all. Even under highly stressful or disorienting conditions. You practice to learn to perform an action well. You train to learn how to perform multiple actions simultaneously using different parts of your mind.

In a high stress situation like a lethal force encounter, your conscious mind will develop "tunnel vision". You'll be unable to think or process multiple things at the same time. If you have to think in order to shoot your weapon effectively, you will be severely limiting your situational awareness. If you are thinking about your situational awareness, you will not be operating your weapon effectively. Often times in this condition everything falls apart, and you can't do anything well. However, a person who has sufficient training on their weapon will be able to operate it subconsciously, while consciously focusing on situational awareness.

Stress can overcome otherwise good training when it causes a person to be unable to 'let go' and allow their training take over. It can cause a person to fight to maintain conscious control of an activity they've trained on, even though it's actually the opposite of what they should do. A person who has trained on something needs to be capable of letting go under stress, and surrendering themself to their training in order for that training to be most effective.

[Pat Cannon]

Woulda been nice if they coulda approached from the street side, so the building was the backstop. Woulda, coulda, easy for me to say.

Another factor to consider in such a situation is: there's people behind you, too. And you can't assume he's any better shot than you are, so you can't count on soaking up all his bullets with your partially-armored body to protect the crowd. 'Cause that's pretty much your alternative tactic to shooting, unless you think you can talk him out of it in the time available between when he draws the gun and when he starts pulling the trigger.

[rugersol]

I've figured out how they missed from 10ft away!!!

http://eu.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm




... that, and maybe the USPSA, IDPA, and/or bullseye leagues in/around NYC keep targets inside 3ft?!

... or ... maybe not all cops believe proficiency with a pistol is nearly important nuff for such things?!

... 'cause I'm sure whatever else NYC does to regularly "train" 8 bazillion cops on a weekly, 'er even monthly basis, is plenty good!

I'm with bloomturd on this one! ... no one in NYC should be allowed to carry guns ... especially cops! ... and especially with 11 lbs triggers!

[goalie]

Holy ****! you are right! Why **** train at all? I bet you wish you would have not even been shown what end the bullets came out of before you dropped into Normandy. Training is Retarded! Why shoot for a higher standard? You should hold a god damn press conference and save taxpayers some money!

Nice try, but you didn't actually address why you, with your superior skills that allow 100% proficiency in your first gunfight, are not being better utilized by the government......

It's easy to be high-speed, low drag from the keyboard.

[Pat Cannon]

I've figured out how they missed from 10ft away!!!

http://eu.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm

The GLOCK „New York“ trigger has its name from the New York Police Department. It facilitates officers changing from revolvers to pistols. Increases trigger pull weight from 2,5 kg / 5.5 lb. to 4,9 kg / 11 lb.

Heh, yeah, if they're going to have a DA revolver trigger, might as well stick to the six-shooter and cut down on the collateral damage.

[ktech]

When you train on something, you're programming your subconscious to be able to perform the actions without any conscious effort at all.

Wow, that's a neat trick.

While I agree that the cops could have probably used more training (who couldn't?), it just seems like the height of hubris to say "If only they had trained more, then they wouldn't have f***ed up so badly."

Also,

The fact that the guy was able to get his weapon out of his briefcase and pointed at the officers before they even started to unholster theirs tends to make me think it was lack of training more than stress.

Some guy reaching in to a briefcase - quickly, unholster your firearm and point it at him!
I feel like if they had done that, we'd all be complaining that they drew down on some guy for no reason.

Fact of the matter is, this was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation - obviously we all wish the BG could have been taken out without any collateral damage, but the fact of the matter is none of us were there and so we can't really tell what would or wouldn't have made things better.

That said, this should be a reminder for us all to train constantly and keep our eyes and ears about us.

ETA: Also, imagine if this were a permit holder...

[jshuberg]

Wow, that's a neat trick.

It's not a trick, it's how the brain works. The vast majority of things we do each day we perform without conscious effort. Walking, talking, riding a bicycle, throwing a baseball, driving a car, and even converting letters on a page into thoughts and ideas. These are all activities that are not instinctual, but through deliberate and conscious repetition, we have taught our subconscious mind to perform without requiring conscious effort. People use different words - instinctual, second nature, I use the term programming the subconscious because that's actually what's happening. When you train on something, you are actually rewiring the physical synapses in parts of your brain to perform the activity being trained on. This can seen in people who have had minor strokes with localized brain damage who lose the ability to do one particular thing (like speaking or using a fork) but are otherwise perfectly normal.

I believe that an armed professional should have the same level of training on operating their firearm that a baseball player has throwing a baseball, or a race car driver has driving a car, or a golf player has swinging a golf club. They should be trained the point that they can use their weapon effectively without conscious effort, especially under stress. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

While I agree that the cops could have probably used more training (who couldn't?), it just seems like the height of hubris to say "If only they had trained more, then they wouldn't have f***ed up so badly."

I'm not saying they **** up. I'm not blaming them for what happened. They did the best they could, at the time, under the circumstances, and I don't think that anyone should be blaming the officers for how they reacted. They simply reacted, period. The bad guy was entirely to blame for what happened. That being said though, I don't think it's wrong to question the effectiveness of their training, based on how they reacted to an obviously bad situation, and look for areas of improvement.

[Grayskies]

I wonder if the bad guy pulled his 45 on some one with a P2C with the same results, I wonder how that person would be treated...

[Lunchbox]

I wonder if the bad guy pulled his 45 on some one with a P2C with the same results, I wonder how that person would be treated...

With the same results? Lots of innocents shot up? The person would probably be crucified (figuratively). The be called a hero for stopping it but they would be torn apart for not training properly, enough, and their life would be over due to the collateral damage. I see that as the best case scenario.

More likely a good amount of people would be calling for his head and he'd be in the same boat as the first shooter.

[Grayskies]

I wonder if the bad guy pulled his 45 on some one with a P2C with the same results, I wonder how that person would be treated...

With the same results? Lots of innocents shot up? The person would probably be crucified (figuratively). The be called a hero for stopping it but they would be torn apart for not training properly, enough, and their life would be over due to the collateral damage. I see that as the best case scenario.

More likely a good amount of people would be calling for his head and he'd be in the same boat as the first shooter.

I agree... I then wonder why so many are giving the police so much slack, they are pros, should they not be held to high higher standard?