Fringe benefits of permit to carry?

[photogpat]

Pat is referring to Andrew Rothman's forum -- http://carryforum.com.

Andrew is Vice President of GOCRA - the Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Association - and Executive Director of MADFI (MN Association of Defensive Firearms Instructors) - a local instructor certification group..

GOCRA -- http://gocra-mn.org/
MADFI -- http://madfi.org

B

Bingo. I couldn't remember if we were allowed to direct link or not...might have been reading too much and not speaking enough.

[photogpat]

Please don't take this as a personal challenge. I'm trying to find the source of this implied threat, what this alluded to threat is towards someone legal carrying a weapon. And what authority this alluded to threat operates by. What is allowing this threat to a permitted person engaged in a legal activity to continue....If your posts are your way of saying "I don't think that is a good idea", or there is clear evidence danger exists for an open carrier that a newcomer might not be privy to.

As far as me carrying an AR or anything else, I think I'm right where someone engaged in fear mongering would want me to be....... I've got too much to lose by taking wild, uncalculated risks with no safety nets. As a result of the implied threat, I refrain from carrying anything anywhere that isn't cased, unloaded, partially disassembled, and as covertly as possible.

The "other forum" thing.....this "internet-forum-you-can't-name-yet-are-willing-to-allude-to", I really don't know which one you're referring to. I am aware of four sites with Minnesota in their name dealing with firearms. Maybe mentioning other forums here is a violation of the terms of service or rules? Consider a private message identifying the forum you are recommending, and I'll look into it. One forum with "carry" in the name is virtually the sanctuary of a reclusive tormented soul, with little other member activity. There's been a handful of posts by a few users in a couple of threads in the past day or so. Another "carry specific" Minnesota forum is new, and the activity seems to be what you'd expect of a new forum with enthusiastic newcomers all looking for common interests to build on and from. IMO, it'll take the element of time for those with legitimate experience and integrity to surface there, and be recognized as trusted sources of information one could act on.

No threats from me (implied or otherwise) - I document newsworthy events with my cameras all the time...selfishly, I just wanted to be in the right place at the right time...unselfishly, I wanted you to speak with someone much more informed about the carry movement in MN than myself -- that would be Andrew Rothman.

[fuller malarkey]

Well, that seems a rather extreme example, wouldn't you agree?

Better example. If I were to decide to be a smug *******, and push the limits of what is considered acceptable in our society, and go out of my way to alarm people and provoke an incident with police just to prove that I can execute my rights, here is what is likely to happen:

As I walk down Nicolette Ave downtown wearing head to toe tacticool gear with my machine gun slung across my chest, I turn the corner and bump directly into one of Minneapolis's finest. As I prepare my little speech about 2A rights, MN law and how I won't consent to a Terry search, Mr. LEO is on a completely different mental track. He perceives me as an immediate threat, and that his life and the lives of those around us are in danger. He shoots and kills me, right there instantly on the spot. The last thing that goes through my mind on my way to the hereafter is MN statute 624.7181, and how I was only acting within the law. After a brief investigation, the prosecutor decides not to press charges, as it was determined that a reasonable person would have felt that the 4 criteria required for use of deadly force was present. The officer is given a medal, and a statue of him is erected on the spot where I died. All the people rejoiced in their brave new hero. My cold dead corpse was saddened by this.

Other variations work as well. The cop could be another armed citizen. I could be wearing normal street clothes, carrying a shotgun or a hunting rifle. Maybe the LEO just takes me to the ground, where I hit my head and spend the rest of my life trying to figure out how doorknobs work. None of these a very pleasant options. While according to MN law carrying a long gun in public isn't a crime, the response to doing so is limited only to what a 'reasonable' person perceives as necessary, which could very easily be a physical altercation up to and including death.

Anyone with a desire to 'push the limits of my rights and see what happens' should stay focused on speech or religion. There is no room for people knowingly acting like jackasses in public when it comes to firearms.

Rather extreme examples I wouldn't be partake in anywhere, anytime. I think rather than assign responsibility to the individual engaged in a lawful activity for the responses of the police, wouldn't it seem more appropriate to leave the legitimacy and responsibility for police responses and actions....on the police?

[jshuberg]

Do you have a permit to carry a firearm in MN? If not, you might consider taking a class. It would be a good way to get answers to your questions, even if you don't plan on carrying. There are also several books specific to MN carry law that most of the gun shops around town have, or can be ordered from the interwebs.

Your desire for knowledge concerning MN firearms laws is admirable, and I think you would benefit from a more formal source of information, in addition to online discussion.

Rather extreme examples I wouldn't be partake in anywhere, anytime. I think rather than assign responsibility to the individual engaged in a lawful activity for the responses of the police, wouldn't it seem more appropriate to leave the legitimacy and responsibility for police responses and actions....on the police?

My point was that while a person is legally able to carry a long gun in public with a permit, that the police (or another permit holder) can legally shoot and kill you if they reasonably believed that you posed an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm, etc.

It is possible for your carrying a long gun in public to be in the right, and for the LEO who shot you to be in the right.

[JoeH]

Don't you mean French benefits?

[ronin069]

The "other forum" thing.....this "internet-forum-you-can't-name-yet-are-willing-to-allude-to", I really don't know which one you're referring to.

Oh, puh-leeze.

I may not like the tilt of your posts, but can respect that you seem to at least believe in what you write.

If you begin to make things up, I can't even give you that.

You know exactly which forum was being referred to because you posted there. You stopped posting there after your antagonistic antics were called out.

[Grayskies]

The "other forum" thing.....this "internet-forum-you-can't-name-yet-are-willing-to-allude-to", I really don't know which one you're referring to.

Oh, puh-leeze.

I may not like the tilt of your posts, but can respect that you seem to at least believe in what you write.

If you begin to make things up, I can't even give you that.

You know exactly which forum was being referred to because you posted there. You stopped posting there after your antagonistic antics were called out.

Well his name says it all.

[DitchDR]

b[/quote]
Can anyone explain this a little bit clearer for me. How I read it is, that "Carry" does not include long guns. Thanks CCIC[/quote]

MN 624.7181 allows a permit holder to carry a long gun under MN 624.714. Read subdivision 1-b-3 (bolded in the quote below)

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/sta ... d=624.7181

624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

Subdivision 1.Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms have the meanings given them.
(a) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter.

(b) "Carry" does not include:

(1) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun to, from, or at a place where firearms are repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;

(2) the carrying by a person of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun that is unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, if the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and no portion of the firearm is exposed;

(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714;

(4) the carrying of an antique firearm as a curiosity or for its historical significance or value; or

(5) the transporting of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun in compliance with section 97B.045.

(c) "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.

Subd. 2.Penalties. Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.
Subd. 3.Exceptions. This section does not apply to officers, employees, or agents of law enforcement agencies or the armed forces of this state or the United States, or private detectives or protective agents, to the extent that these persons are authorized by law to carry firearms and are acting in the scope of their official duties.

[/quote]
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this, but I dont see any where that your permit to carry a pistol (which is what my permit says) allows you to carry a long gun. I placed some things in bold up above. "Carry does not include" is the big one and the penalties listed below. Again Im sorry if I am misunderstanding this.

[DitchDR]

[/quote]


https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/sta ... d=624.7181

624.7181 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS IN PUBLIC PLACES.

Subdivision 1.Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following terms have the meanings given them.
(a) "BB gun" means a device that fires or ejects a shot measuring .18 of an inch or less in diameter.

(b) "Carry" does not include:

(1) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun to, from, or at a place where firearms are repaired, bought, sold, traded, or displayed, or where hunting, target shooting, or other lawful activity involving firearms occurs, or at funerals, parades, or other lawful ceremonies;

(2) the carrying by a person of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun that is unloaded and in a gun case expressly made to contain a firearm, if the case fully encloses the firearm by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or otherwise fastened, and no portion of the firearm is exposed;

(3) the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714;

(4) the carrying of an antique firearm as a curiosity or for its historical significance or value; or

(5) the transporting of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun in compliance with section 97B.045.

(c) "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.

Subd. 2.Penalties. Whoever carries a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person under the age of 21 who carries a semiautomatic military-style assault weapon, as defined in section 624.712, subdivision 7, on or about the person in a public place is guilty of a felony.
Subd. 3.Exceptions. This section does not apply to officers, employees, or agents of law enforcement agencies or the armed forces of this state or the United States, or private detectives or protective agents, to the extent that these persons are authorized by law to carry firearms and are acting in the scope of their official duties.

[/quote]
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding this, but I dont see any where that your permit to carry a pistol (which is what my permit says) allows you to carry a long gun. I placed some things in bold up above. "Carry does not include" is the big one and the penalties listed below. Again Im sorry if I am misunderstanding this.

[plblark]

It's a confusing construction but read it backwards...

Weird language that basically says: Here's what's illegal (carrying of loaded long guns in a public place) and here's what's exempt (the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714)

It's illegal to "carry" a loaded long gun in a public place Except it's not considered carrying for the purpose of this statute if you have a permit.

[bstrawse]

It's a confusing construction but read it backwards...

Weird language that basically says: Here's what's illegal (carrying of loaded long guns in a public place) and here's what's exempt (the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714)

It's illegal to "carry" a loaded long gun in a public place Except it's not considered carrying for the purpose of this statute if you have a permit.

^^ What he said
b

[fuller malarkey]

Rather extreme examples I wouldn't be partake in anywhere, anytime. I think rather than assign responsibility to the individual engaged in a lawful activity for the responses of the police, wouldn't it seem more appropriate to leave the legitimacy and responsibility for police responses and actions....on the police?

My point was that while a person is legally able to carry a long gun in public with a permit, that the police (or another permit holder) can legally shoot and kill you if they reasonably believed that you posed an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm, etc.

It is possible for your carrying a long gun in public to be in the right, and for the LEO who shot you to be in the right.

I'm currently covered by a concealed carry permit issued outside of Minnesota. The state issuing it has reciprocity with Minnesota.


The reality of taking a training course simply for information on current social norms and to get the temperature readings of the police is that nothing prohibits the trainer from injecting their own prejudices, fears, misunderstandings and biases into the presentation. Classes are also limited in time and scope, considering the required information that needs to be covered to maintain an ethically adequate presentation. I'm thinking a good cross section of experience, knowledge and discussion might be more beneficial.

And truthfully, isn't that what forums are for.....?

[fuller malarkey]

It's a confusing construction but read it backwards...

Weird language that basically says: Here's what's illegal (carrying of loaded long guns in a public place) and here's what's exempt (the carrying of a BB gun, rifle, or shotgun by a person who has a permit under section 624.714)

It's illegal to "carry" a loaded long gun in a public place Except it's not considered carrying for the purpose of this statute if you have a permit.

It worked for Humpty Dumpty, didn't it?

I'm having a hard time buying that any Judge is going to allow that a citizen must adapt and adopt an understanding given by Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass" character Humpty Dumpty, who gets to make up words and meanings as he goes along. I suspect that while application might be somewhat dynamic, there should be some static quality to the carry law to interpret from.

[jshuberg]

I'm currently covered by a concealed carry permit issued outside of Minnesota. The state issuing it has reciprocity with Minnesota.

Reciprocity is great, but if you're going to be living here for any length of time I would highly recommend taking a class. There will be differences with wherever your permit is issued from.

And truthfully, isn't that what forums are for.....?

To get all of the legal information normally covered in a 6-8 hour class for free? No, I don't think that's what the forum is for, but I'm pretty new here myself so perhaps someone else can chime in on this idea.

[plblark]

I'm having a hard time buying that any Judge is going to allow that a citizen must adapt and adopt an understanding given by Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass" character Humpty Dumpty, who gets to make up words and meanings as he goes along. I suspect that while application might be somewhat dynamic, there should be some static quality to the carry law to interpret from.

[sarcasm]
You could be correct. You're probably a MN carry permit instructor and have sat in while potential laws were drafted, listened to the give and take legislators and more importantly the staff and revisors who actually write the law, heard about different ways of writing the laws from a law professor or one of two brilliant attorneys who have been bird dogging MN gun law for decades, possibly even having looked at that specific law ... Heck, you've probably seen, discussed, or maybe even reviewed applicable case law on the matter

I, on the other hand, probably don't know what I'm talking about and you, as the newcomer with an out of state permit are likely more correct
[/sarcasm]

But that wouldn't be the way I would bet

Or, you could be playing both sides of the street given your prior comments in this thread and should be treated as your screen name indicates