Conceivability vs. round count

[MN_MO]

I love my Ruger LCP .380 with a desantis pocket holster......I wear it with shorts, jeans, pajamas......fits under the pillow just right too.....I have a Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II .45 too but haven't got around to finding a good holster.....when i do, then that will be my winter carry. It's a home defense gun til then.

[sgruenhagen44]

There are people who believe that the assailant ready to attack them will be standing with a stick several yards away standing still while you have your firearm pulled out aimed and ready to fire under a perfect condition...... 2 shots to the body and 1 shot to the chest......

Then there are people who train for various conditions, environments and multiple assailants while protecting themselves, family members, etc. We train to provide cover fire while escorting people to safety, consider keeping multiple assailants at bay while protecting, account for internal chemicals to empty a magazine under panic, consider losing magazines while scrambling for cover, having spare magazines for trained family members sharing the same firearms platform, etc. We take training seriously and the responsibility of carrying a firearm gravely and ready and willing to utilize our tools when called for with the right mindset because we are prepared.

It all depends on who you are and what you are ready and willing to do. It isn't comfortable carrying a full size firearm and spare magazines and to conceal it. But having the right tools on me can mean the right preparation for many of unexpected life's challenges.

OK flame suit on!!! I always hear about training under stress so you will be prepared for a gun fight. How does one train for that? I think there are plenty of guys who have taken a lot of training who might just freeze at the moment of truth. I try to mentally prepare myself for taking a DEERS life every year, I have killed a few and for sure missed a few!!!! I feel like a human is going to get the adrenaline pumpin a little bit more. Believe me, I wish I had time to take one of these pistol defense courses. They look fun and they're beneficial no doubt. And at least for me, armed or not, I will not be escorting anyone to any safe zone unless I have a pretty close relationship with them.

I don't know... if I'm diving for cover and there are multiple assailant SJHTF!!! By the way I don't believe my assailant will be standing still with a stick either. It's just kinda like where do you draw the line? What is practical? If I'm carrying a snubbie and my enemy has a full size 9mm he clearly has the advantage assuming he can operate it half way decent. So my next scenario.... Lets say I am carrying a glock 17 with 30+ rounds. I still have the potential of being outgunned!!!!

At home I practice drawing my gun with different clothing and practice clearing malfunctions and such. I also think it is my duty as a person who carries that I hit the range at least once a month. This is about as far as my training goes. Props to anyone that goes above and beyond that. I'm just hoping that concealing enough will enable me to use it when it counts no matter how small the gun.

[CraigJS]

True that!!

[stecker]

I have taken several training courses (from basic, to challenge, to stress fire, even force on force) what those classes have taught me is that I am no good with a small firearm under duress. The smallest gun I can efficiently and effectively operate under those conditions is my Glock 19. The gun I carry 80% of the time is my Glock 21. I am larger than the average bear so I can conceal it very well, even in dress slacks with a tucked-in shirt and tie (my normal daily dress).

The other thing that I believe is absolutely essential for being as prepared as possible for that highly improbable SHTF moment we all talk about is physical fitness and prepareing yourself to deal with violet and painful contact. Remember the old adage, "everyone has a plan, but it goes out the window as soon as they get tagged in the nose". If you are not physically and mentally prepared to function through mental stress and physical pain, you'll be toast when you face a criminal who is.

I don't carry spare mags but I do carry a knife and a small P32 as a BUG. I know the P32 goes against what I said about small guns, but it is easier to carry/conceal and quicker to put into action than another magazine for my primary.

[TTS]

sgruenhagen44,

You are correct, you can always be out gunned. I don't think think that is what solidgun was getting at.

If you are looking for training that adds stress, start with something as simple as a timer and progress up to Force-on-Force training. I have done hundreds of FoF scenarios as a student, instructor and roll player; one thing that has never changed is that I start to feel the effects of Fight or Flight. Decision making gets harder, palms get sweaty and my vision narrows.

After doing the classes a few times you learn what your body is going to do and it gets easier every time.

One time I was playing the "bad guy" in a FoF low light class. When I came around the corner to engage the two officers who were holding a suspect at gunpoint, one officer started shooting at me and the other started shooting the suspect while watching me! It was a real eye opener for him, because he thought he was shooting at me...

[solidgun]

OK flame suit on!!! I always hear about training under stress so you will be prepared for a gun fight. How does one train for that? I think there are plenty of guys who have taken a lot of training who might just freeze at the moment of truth. I try to mentally prepare myself for taking a DEERS life every year, I have killed a few and for sure missed a few!!!! I feel like a human is going to get the adrenaline pumpin a little bit more. Believe me, I wish I had time to take one of these pistol defense courses. They look fun and they're beneficial no doubt. And at least for me, armed or not, I will not be escorting anyone to any safe zone unless I have a pretty close relationship with them.

I don't know... if I'm diving for cover and there are multiple assailant SJHTF!!! By the way I don't believe my assailant will be standing still with a stick either. It's just kinda like where do you draw the line? What is practical? If I'm carrying a snubbie and my enemy has a full size 9mm he clearly has the advantage assuming he can operate it half way decent. So my next scenario.... Lets say I am carrying a glock 17 with 30+ rounds. I still have the potential of being outgunned!!!!

At home I practice drawing my gun with different clothing and practice clearing malfunctions and such. I also think it is my duty as a person who carries that I hit the range at least once a month. This is about as far as my training goes. Props to anyone that goes above and beyond that. I'm just hoping that concealing enough will enable me to use it when it counts no matter how small the gun.

There are several things you can do to simulate high stress encounter. These are what I do.
1. Train all day to get exhausted mentally and physically.
2. Run.....then try to calm your body down to squeeze out an accurate shot.
3. Train in the cold. We live in cold environments. I go to outdoor ranges and try to shoot in the cold weather.

You can never be prepared for everything and determined assailants may outgun you and outsmart you at their convenience. The difference is training and having the right equipment most of the time. What is practical is determined by you and with proper planning. One need not be wearing body armor with plates and carrying rifles and sidearms to go work out. Not everyone can carry all the tools needed in life, but with some planning, you will be able to balance what type of compromise one is willing to make. We all have different lifestyles and line of work. I don't know how dangerous the florists' businesses get, but if you have something that is worth taking, proper level of defense can be surmised.

Many of us are limited in training unless it is our line of work. So what is right for you can only be determined by you. I don't watch tv shows, I don't play golf, I don't knit. I allocate those times for what is more important to me. I read, I spend time with my family, I volunteer and I train. No one can do it all, but I take the responsibility of carrying a firearm seriously because I am well aware that I have a lot to lose. (By the way, there is nothing wrong with watching TV, golfing and knitting.....that is what people choose to do to find joy in life, that is the way it should be)

You are doing a lot more than some of the people I run into. They get their permit, get a firearm, get a box of ammo and fool themselves that they are ready. So props to you for taking this seriously. I am afraid that I will get shot by those other idiots if SHTF thinking I am the bad guy. You are willing to take time to practice, ask questions to learn, willing to improve... you have the right mindset.

[jshuberg]

OK flame suit on!!! I always hear about training under stress so you will be prepared for a gun fight. How does one train for that? I think there are plenty of guys who have taken a lot of training who might just freeze at the moment of truth. I try to mentally prepare myself for taking a DEERS life every year, I have killed a few and for sure missed a few!!!! I feel like a human is going to get the adrenaline pumpin a little bit more. Believe me, I wish I had time to take one of these pistol defense courses. They look fun and they're beneficial no doubt. And at least for me, armed or not, I will not be escorting anyone to any safe zone unless I have a pretty close relationship with them.

There is a difference between training for defense, and training for competition, although there *is* significant overlap between the two. Competitive training strives for excellence under ideal or controlled conditions. Defensive training strives for competence under disadvantaged or chaotic conditions. Here are some recommendations from a defensive training standpoint:

First, take at least one class. Find out if you're currently doing things properly. Are you slingshotting the slide or hitting the slide lock during reloads? Slingshotting requires fine motor skills that will go bye-bye under stress. Slide locks are not located in the same place on every weapon, and it is not a good idea to train to a specific weapon. An overhand grip requires no fine motor skills, and works on all semiauto pistols. You're draw stroke, tactical and speed reloads, you need to make sure that what you're currently doing isn't reinforcing a technique that would be difficult if not impossible to perform under extreme stress.

Once you know you're technique won't be a hindrance to performing under stress, train as often as your schedule and finances allow. Slow, perfect training. Focus on the 7 fundamentals. Stress accuracy in your training. Start adding speed as your technique and talent evolves. At some point you'll get to the place where you can operate your firearm without thinking, the same way you can drive a car without thinking. It becomes second nature, and your subconscious takes over the details of handling the weapon, leaving your conscious mind to focus on situational awareness. Getting to this point is the single most important milestone you can reach as either a defensive or competitive shooter.

Even extremely well trained individuals can freeze, choke, or panic under stress. A persons natural inclination is to try to mentally 'stay on top' of the stress they are experiencing, and fight to keep their conscious mind in control. While this technique can work, especially if you combine it with stress inoculation training, there is a better way. Once you get to the point where you can execute your training without thinking, you also need to learn how to surrender yourself to your training under stress. Letting your training 'kick in' is another way to phrase it. Essentially, you have to train yourself to be comfortable 'letting go' of the fight to keep your conscious mind in control. This can be done in training by giving your conscious mind something to do other than paying attention to the fact that you're shooting.

Here's a good drill you can do on the range with a buddy. Setup one of those targets with the colored, numbered shapes. Have your buddy write down a list of a mix of colors, numbers, and shapes, and have him shout them at you from behind. The instant you shoot the target he calls, he should immediately call the next target. Do this as quickly and accurately as you're able. After awhile, call out simple arithmetic - your buddy calls 10 - 6, and you shoot the number 4. This will pull your conscious mind completely away from your gun and you're shooting technique and focus it on identifying the next target. A random combination of shapes, colors, numbers, and arithmetic will keep you switching between using different processing centers of your brain, and after a little while you may stop and realize that you're shooting and reloading completely automatically, the same way you hit the brakes automatically when someone swerves in front of you.

Once you become competent at this, start introducing stress. Increase speed, get your heart rate up, jog around the parking lot or do pushups - whatever you can do in the environment you're in to increase adrenaline, exhaustion, confusion, etc. One thing I've done (and I absolutely do *not* encourage anyone else to do!) is to slam 3 double espressos minutes before hitting the range. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack, and my head was going to explode! Whenever you introduce additional stress, your main training priority should be allowing yourself to let go, and surrender yourself to your training. The higher the stress, the more your brain is going to want to fight you on this. By gradually increasing and training through stress, and learning to let go and let your training kick in, you're conditioning yourself to be able to perform according to your training should an actual lethal force encounter ever happen to you. As Col. David Grossman has stated - you never rise to the occasion in combat, you fall to the level of your training.

Again though, there are a million different schools of thought on this, and thousands of different drills and training scenarios. More important than any particular school of thought or training regimen is that you choose a training plan that makes sense to you, and understand and stick to that plan. Any training is better than no training, but having a training plan, and understanding the goals and milestones you want to meet is significantly better than simply going to the range and randomly shooting from time to time without understanding how that days training session fits into the big picture of how you're advancing your skill.

Anyways, this is long and rambly, but if you're genuinely interested in training for defensive situations, these are a few of the things you should consider.

[sgruenhagen44]

I see what you're sayin. Kinda like with sporting clays minus the stress. People always ask me how much lead I gave the bird. I have no idea, just was lookin at the bird and it broke. I don't really consciously pull the trigger. I just do it because I have practiced it a million times! At some point I would like to take a class, now that I just finished school i might actually have time!

[FJ540]

Conceivability? Spell check on Aisle 2, please.

I thought he spelled it right - is it conceivable that you'd need 17+1? I'm gonna go with 8 rds of 230gr with an extra mag in the truck (or on me as the conceivability of needing it rises).

Chances of that not being enough are pretty slim.

[Seismic Sam]

After two days of carrying my XD9 4.5, I found out (like many said) it is an uncomfortable weapon to carry and hard to conceal.

I went into Gander looking for a holster to alleviate the issue, but I ended up looking at compact guns. Two of them to be exact. 1. The XD9 3.8 Compact, and 2. The Walther PPS 9. When I handled the Walther, it felt amazing in my hand until I realized that is a 7+1 shot count. The XD has a 13+1 shot capability, but it is harder to conceal. I think is worth mentioning that I am also not planing on carrying a second mag.

In your opinion, what do you favor, conceivability or round count?

Thank you for your thoughts.

I think it's pretty clear that he was trying to spell concealability...

Oh, and I'm on the same page as you, except it's not 8 rounds of 45 caliber 230 grain hollowpoints, it's 8 rounds of 300 grain 50 caliber hollowpoints...

[FJ540]

Well yeah, once you read the post... First thing you see is the poll.

[Snowgun]

I'll take a 9mm that I will carry that has 3 rounds over some 17 round block ergonomics gun that will end up at home any day.

[grousemaster]

I'll take a 9mm that I will carry that has 3 rounds over some 17 round block ergonomics gun that will end up at home any day.

Like a Hi-Point you mean?

[rugersol]

IMHO, single stack and carry a spare mag. The spare mag isn't just for capacity. It is also to repair ammo and magazine related failures quickly. YMMV, IANAL and I've only been shooting firearms for 20 years.

+∞³

I prefer a 4.25in lightweight 1911 ... but I'm guessing yer gonna be most successful with a Sig P938 ... if not P238!

[jshuberg]

Don't rule out the P239. It's a larger compact compared with most others these days, especially the subs, but shoots like its larger cousins.