Another School Shooting

[Heffay]

Gunclasses.net...

I would suspect Heffay would surprise you in that a lot of his ideas are not personally motivated.

Well.. I meant 'you' as the generic 'you', was not making it personal to Heffay or inferring anything like that.

You still have it wrong saying they are responsible for their actions. They aren't, any more than a cancer patient is responsible for the effects of his cancer.

That is the attitude that needs to change. You're just perpetuating the stigma. They may have to live with the consequences of their illness, but they aren't responsible for it. You're just going to make them feel bad about their condition and withdraw, which is the exact opposite of what needs to happen.

"What is wrong with you? Get out of that wheelchair. It's all in your mind!"

[GunClasses.Net]

Gunclasses.net...

I would suspect Heffay would surprise you in that a lot of his ideas are not personally motivated.

Well.. I meant 'you' as the generic 'you', was not making it personal to Heffay or inferring anything like that.

You still have it wrong saying they are responsible for their actions. They aren't, any more than a cancer patient is responsible for the effects of his cancer.

That is the attitude that needs to change. You're just perpetuating the stigma. They may have to live with the consequences of their illness, but they aren't responsible for it. You're just going to make them feel bad about their condition and withdraw, which is the exact opposite of what needs to happen.

"What is wrong with you? Get out of that wheelchair. It's all in your mind!"

So I'm confused. First I said the person with mental illness is responsible for getting help, and then after your rebuttal, I gave it more thought and I also said that if you know someone close to you who needs help and isn't getting it, you should speak up ... but if I still have it wrong, then just how exactly do they get the help they need?

[sprigfan]

I completely understand and agree that we need to do a much better job of treating our mentally ill in this country. However, why are mass school shootings in this country a relatively new phenomena? You can't tell me mental illness didn't exist 50 years ago. So why didn't they go massacre school children back then? What has changed between then and now? School shootings are not new, but in the past, one or a few specific individuals were targeted, not entire groups of children.

[Heffay]

So I'm confused. First I said the person with mental illness is responsible for getting help, and then after your rebuttal, I gave it more thought and I also said that if you know someone close to you who needs help and isn't getting it, you should speak up ... but if I still have it wrong, then just how exactly do they get the help they need?

Oh, I didn't realize you changed your mind from your original post. It wasn't clear from your post.

There is no single way to deal with this issue. Removing the stigma is probably up there in priority, so saying things like "they are responsible for their actions" needs to be removed from the debate and we need to bring sympathy and empathy to the table instead.

[Mn01r6]

We all want to blame this on something but at this point we don't even know the shooter had a mental illness. If he did, and knew about it and didn't get the help he needed or chose to go off his medication, that's on him, not his illness. If this was a first break of schizophrenia (I say that because he is apparently in the age range for such) then we blame the illness and ask how we can quickly identify and intervene. It's too early to tell at this point.

[Heffay]

I completely understand and agree that we need to do a much better job of treating our mentally ill in this country. However, why are mass school shootings in this country a relatively new phenomena? You can't tell me mental illness didn't exist 50 years ago. So why didn't they go massacre school children back then? What has changed between then and now? School shootings are not new, but in the past, one or a few specific individuals were targeted, not entire groups of children.

I'm not sure that is true. School children have probably always been victims like this. But with the internet and the increased capabilities of our weapons, the end results are more severe than before. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they can't learn, and with more information out there than ever before, the damage they can do ramps up considerably.

Of course, shutting down the internet isn't any more of a solution to this than banning hi-cap magazines. We need to treat the source.

It'll always happen though. It can't be eliminated, but we can reduce the severity and frequency. Assuming that it has gone up, which I'm not sure it has overall.

[Heffay]

We all want to blame this on something but at this point we don't even know the shooter had a mental illness. If he did, and knew about it and didn't get the help he needed or chose to go off his medication, that's on him, not his illness. If this was a first break of schizophrenia (I say that because he is apparently in the age range for such) then we blame the illness and ask how we can quickly identify and intervene. It's too early to tell at this point.

And here we go again.

[Mn01r6]

And here we go again.

So no matter what you blame the illness and not the person? If a diabetic chooses not to take insulin and they go into a coma that's the fault of the disease and in no way is the person responsible for not taking their medication?

[Heffay]

And here we go again.

So no matter what you blame the illness and not the person? If a diabetic chooses not to take insulin and they go into a coma that's the fault of the disease and in no way is the person responsible for not taking their medication?

Being a diabetic doesn't affect your decision making skills. If a diabetic doesn't take their insulin and has a reaction while driving, they can and DO lose their drivers licenses, because that was a choice they made.

Mental illness is an illness that affects your brain, which for most people is the most complicated organ in their body.

[Squib Joe]

You can't tell me mental illness didn't exist 50 years ago. So why didn't they go massacre school children back then?

They did. The worst mass murder in a school happened in 1927

[GunClasses.Net]

You can't tell me mental illness didn't exist 50 years ago. So why didn't they go massacre school children back then?

They did. The worst mass murder in a school happened in 1927

Right, I think it was a school board member who used 3 bombs to kill 45. Only in recent years has it started to become a trend, I think?

[Jeff Bergquist]

I think these things are becoming more common because the lust to be "famous" has pervaded the American psyche, so for those without consciences it has become more of a motivator in how they act out.

[GunClasses.Net]

And here we go again.

So no matter what you blame the illness and not the person? If a diabetic chooses not to take insulin and they go into a coma that's the fault of the disease and in no way is the person responsible for not taking their medication?

Being a diabetic doesn't affect your decision making skills. If a diabetic doesn't take their insulin and has a reaction while driving, they can and DO lose their drivers licenses, because that was a choice they made.

Mental illness is an illness that affects your brain, which for most people is the most complicated organ in their body.

I actually agree with you Heffay, but I've run into a lot of growly people who won't sympathize. When they say "But once a person gets drunk enough, he doesn't have the decision making skill to not get behind the wheel - someone must take his keys away from him; and I bet you would hold the drunk guy accountable when his brain is impaired. So why not do the same when someone else's brain impairment is by a mental illness?", ... what exactly would you say to that?

And, to someone who suggested it's not known whether he had a mental illness,
1. Nobody without a mental illness can shoot up a school, because that so runs against healthy human instinct.
2. The news now reports someone close to him knew him to have mental illness issues.

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'm on a Six Month Total News Blackout...I'll tune into MSM etc next summer sometime. My TV is on ...just no news...of any kind. I'll have to keep informed...at an arms length, like on this forum.

I"m sure when the Germans took Paris....the first six months were the worst....after that they got back to business. Krauthammer (Fox News) is a Psychiatrist and he's probably prescribing himself anti-depressants.

I'm listening to 50's Jazz and watching 40's movies...keeping away from the Toxic Sewage of Pop Culture.

If these nut-job shooters would target the New York Times or NBC / CBS / ABC.... THAT I'd tune in for.

[Heffay]

So why not do the same when someone else's brain impairment is by a mental illness?", ... what exactly would you say to that?

They made the choice to start drinking. They are (at least partially) responsible for whatever they do after that. Of course, that's not an absolute, as a drunk woman who gets raped isn't responsible at ALL for getting raped. But if she runs down a guy on an exit ramp in the middle of the night and drives off, well... yeah.

And even there there are circumstances that affect the responsibility there. An alcoholic by nature can't control their drinking. But we shouldn't treat him like crap because he's an alcoholic. We should be empathetic to his situation and not judge, since they really aren't in control. And when he stops feeling like **** about himself because of who he is, then he'll be more likely to get help to deal with it.

It's probably part of the problem in the world today. It's not a general decline in moral standards. It's a lack of empathy of our fellow man. We rush to judge instead of lending out a helping hand.

As can be clearly seen in this thread...