Assault Gun Question

[jshuberg]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't gun rights been increasing rather dramatically over the past few decades?

Yes and No. It's still a significant pain in the a$$ to own a machine gun. This despite the fact that legal machine guns are almost *never* used in crimes. In fact there have only been 2 crimes that have been committed with a legal machine gun since 1934, and one of those was an off duty police officer.

[Heffay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't gun rights been increasing rather dramatically over the past few decades?

Yes and No. It's still a significant pain in the a$$ to own a machine gun. This despite the fact that legal machine guns are almost *never* used in crimes. In fact there have only been 2 crimes that have been committed with a legal machine gun since 1934, and one of those was an off duty police officer.

So, yes.

[GunClasses.Net]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't gun rights been increasing rather dramatically over the past few decades?

Yes and No. It's still a significant pain in the a$$ to own a machine gun. This despite the fact that legal machine guns are almost *never* used in crimes. In fact there have only been 2 crimes that have been committed with a legal machine gun since 1934, and one of those was an off duty police officer.

So, yes.

So... keeping ownership of it (in this case, a machine gun) legal but regulating it and charging high fees to acquire it reduce crimes committed with it. Sounds like an argument for taxing assault weapons, handguns, hi cap mags, etc?

NO no no no, I'm not advocating for that at all! I'm just saying putting the facts together that 1. it was made as expensive and inconvenient as heck at the end of the gangster era, and 2. it's almost never used illegally since then might hand someone an anecdote that taxing and regulating is the answer instead of outlawing.

[mnmike59]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't gun rights been increasing rather dramatically over the past few decades?

Yes and No. It's still a significant pain in the a$$ to own a machine gun. This despite the fact that legal machine guns are almost *never* used in crimes. In fact there have only been 2 crimes that have been committed with a legal machine gun since 1934, and one of those was an off duty police officer.

How about Illegal machine guns?

[Heffay]

Careful, you're supporting the gun control advocate's argument that making a particular gun expensive, difficult to obtain and have severe penalties attached to illegally owning it is very effective.

[GunClasses.Net]

Careful, you're supporting the gun control advocate's argument that making a particular gun expensive, difficult to obtain and have severe penalties attached to illegally owning it is very effective.

It's a qualified statement "crimes committed with a machine gun" have decreased -- doesn't mean crime overall went down. Of course, that presumes someone does not just stop, there; thinks it through to the next point.

[jshuberg]

My problem isn't primarily with the NFA, although that's something that can and should be debated. My problem is with the complete prohibition on citizens owning a machine gun manufactured after 1986. It was completely unnecessary to do this, as there wasn't a problem with machine guns being used in crimes. More people were killed by being hit by asteroids than were killed with a registered machine gun over the previous 50 years.

The fact that the machine gun violence of the 1920's and 1930's ended was more likely the result of additional law enforcement being brought to bear on the problem, and the end of prohibition. I haven't researched it specifically, but I doubt that there were many gangster types who lawfully registered their machine guns, and I also doubt that there were many gangsters that were arrested for possessing an unregistered machine gun who who wouldn't have otherwise been arrested for some other reason once they were found. In other words, I don't believe that the passage of the NFA played much of a role in the end of the prohibition era gangsters.

I'm absolutely ecstatic over the recent court decisions that have gone in our favor, but I don't think we can call these recent decisions a trend yet. I hope that's the case, but they could in fact just be a hiccup in the century long trend of nibbling away at our rights. It's definitely not the time to relax and think that everything is going to be OK and not worry about it.

As to the question of *illegal* machine guns, they are almost never used in crimes either. Occasionally someone is arrested for possession of an unregistered machine gun, but I think the last time one was actually used in a crime was the North Hollywood shootout in 1997. I'm going by memory here, but if anyone else in the country used a machine gun in a crime, it would definitely make national news. Things don't actually happen the way they do in the movies....

[cigartim]

the guns aren't broken.

Umm... all of mine are. I keep hearing that AR's are indiscriminate killing machines, but mine haven't killed a single person. I guess mine are defective. Do you think that might be covered under the manufacturer's warranty?

[FJ540]

I can't type what I want to say to that comment.

My assault rifles are all broken too if they have to kill people to be deemed functional. My m4gery has only killed a single grouse in the 2 years it's existed.

Assault rifle is actually a military term. It has to do with the size of projectile, not the visual style or purpose of the weapon. Battle rifles are large caliber/cartridge and intended to be used against harder targets (vehicles, light cover, etc) or at longer range, where assault rifles use a smaller caliber/cartridge so the soldier can carry more rounds for the same weight and are meant to facilitate faster movements, and higher volume of rounds fired without fatigue.

The media and left's use of the term clearly shows intended bias to "villify" the weapon as serving only one use. However, every guard at every military base also carries one (or has ready access to it) for a defensive purpose. Modern sporting rifle is probably the best term we could use to destigmatize the platform.

[xd ED]

As someone, somewhere pointed out: LE seems to make the term 'patrol carbine/ rifle' work.

[GunClasses.Net]

Let's be honest, we're never going to stop the media from saying stupid things. "Assault weapon", not assault weapon... "Clip", "magazine"... If we let the debate get us quagmired in semantics, we don't address the real issue, which is that the anti-gun culture is not at its core just anti-gun. For them to push through their agenda, independent, self-sufficient people who can think for themselves are their enemies. People who put their trust in God for all they need and are not anxious for their physical well-being are just as objectionable to the control-freaks who are taking everything over as well. The goal is for us all to make the state 'god'. Think that's a stretch?:

Does anyone actually believe that Obamacare, austerity, diminishment of our society's institutions, and the demonization of anyone who can fend for themselves are all happening simultaneously by accident? Why do you think the institutions of society that make a people cohesive and functional in America, in Europe, in the Arab world, and in Israel, are all under simultaneous attack? I'm not saying people in all of those areas are thinking for themselves, because clearly they're not, but if some people want so much to impose a new system on people worldwide, whatever it is that makes a society resistant to that 'needs to be wrecked'. The goal is for people to put their dependence not on themselves, not on God, but on the state for their food (foodstamps), shelter (mortgage assistance), clothing, healthcare (Obamacare) and let's not forget: Security - everything it means to be human! They cannot do that if gun owners are running around taking care of themselves. If you can think for yourself, turn off the influence of mainstream and social media, and hold to your principles, then you may make it through this era and not become a true good-little-pet of the nanny-state. Guns are a means to an end. Gun control is a battle in a far larger war. The war isn't on guns, the war is on your MIND. Always has been.

I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. – Thomas Jefferson

I also think we ourselves aren't immune to some questionable lingo like "tactical" (decisions and movements are tactical, just because you make it black doesn't make it tactical - it's just tacticool). But that's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, against a backdrop of global hostility to independence.

[Mn01r6]

Let's be honest, we're never going to stop the media from saying stupid things. "Assault weapon", not assault weapon... "Clip", "magazine"... If we let the debate get us quagmired in semantics, we don't address the real issue, which is that the anti-gun culture is not at its core just anti-gun. For them to push through their agenda, independent, self-sufficient people who can think for themselves are their enemies. People who put their trust in God for all they need and are not anxious for their physical well-being are just as objectionable to the control-freaks who are taking everything over as well. The goal is for us all to make the state 'god'. Think that's a stretch?:

Does anyone actually believe that Obamacare, austerity, diminishment of our society's institutions, and the demonization of anyone who can fend for themselves are all happening simultaneously by accident? Why do you think the institutions of society that make a people cohesive and functional in America, in Europe, in the Arab world, and in Israel, are all under simultaneous attack? I'm not saying people in all of those areas are thinking for themselves, because clearly they're not, but if some people want so much to impose a new system on people worldwide, whatever it is that makes a society resistant to that 'needs to be wrecked'. The goal is for people to put their dependence not on themselves, not on God, but on the state for their food (foodstamps), shelter (mortgage assistance), clothing, healthcare (Obamacare) and let's not forget: Security - everything it means to be human! They cannot do that if gun owners are running around taking care of themselves. If you can think for yourself, turn off the influence of mainstream and social media, and hold to your principles, then you may make it through this era and not become a true good-little-pet of the nanny-state. Guns are a means to an end. Gun control is a battle in a far larger war. The war isn't on guns, the war is on your MIND. Always has been.

I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. – Thomas Jefferson

I also think we ourselves aren't immune to some questionable lingo like "tactical" (decisions and movements are tactical, just because you make it black doesn't make it tactical - it's just tacticool). But that's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, against a backdrop of global hostility to independence.

I have to respectfully disagree. What you call something can have an affect and judgement attached to it (happy, sad; good, bad) imagine instead of "assault weapons" they were called "snugly rainbow unicorn carbines" by the Brady campaign - would anyone want to do away with such a wonderful thing? It must be a complete anomaly that a snugly rainbow unicorn carbine was used in a crime - what a perversion of its intended purpose!

Words can cause that emotional reaction. A Sporting Carbine sounds an awful lot less likely to murder my children than an Assault Weapon. They chose assault weapon on purpose. We need to rename it.

[ex-LT]

You can't seem to differentiate between increased straw buying penalties and 10 round mag limits.

Would you care to 'splain to everyone the effect increased straw buying penalties would have had on the shootings in Newtown, Aurora, or Tacoma?

[XDM45]

Let's be honest, we're never going to stop the media from saying stupid things. "Assault weapon", not assault weapon... "Clip", "magazine"... If we let the debate get us quagmired in semantics, we don't address the real issue, which is that the anti-gun culture is not at its core just anti-gun. For them to push through their agenda, independent, self-sufficient people who can think for themselves are their enemies. People who put their trust in God for all they need and are not anxious for their physical well-being are just as objectionable to the control-freaks who are taking everything over as well. The goal is for us all to make the state 'god'. Think that's a stretch?:

Does anyone actually believe that Obamacare, austerity, diminishment of our society's institutions, and the demonization of anyone who can fend for themselves are all happening simultaneously by accident? Why do you think the institutions of society that make a people cohesive and functional in America, in Europe, in the Arab world, and in Israel, are all under simultaneous attack? I'm not saying people in all of those areas are thinking for themselves, because clearly they're not, but if some people want so much to impose a new system on people worldwide, whatever it is that makes a society resistant to that 'needs to be wrecked'. The goal is for people to put their dependence not on themselves, not on God, but on the state for their food (foodstamps), shelter (mortgage assistance), clothing, healthcare (Obamacare) and let's not forget: Security - everything it means to be human! They cannot do that if gun owners are running around taking care of themselves. If you can think for yourself, turn off the influence of mainstream and social media, and hold to your principles, then you may make it through this era and not become a true good-little-pet of the nanny-state. Guns are a means to an end. Gun control is a battle in a far larger war. The war isn't on guns, the war is on your MIND. Always has been.

I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. – Thomas Jefferson

I also think we ourselves aren't immune to some questionable lingo like "tactical" (decisions and movements are tactical, just because you make it black doesn't make it tactical - it's just tacticool). But that's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, against a backdrop of global hostility to independence.

I have to respectfully disagree. What you call something can have an affect and judgement attached to it (happy, sad; good, bad) imagine instead of "assault weapons" they were called "snugly rainbow unicorn carbines" by the Brady campaign - would anyone want to do away with such a wonderful thing? It must be a complete anomaly that a snugly rainbow unicorn carbine was used in a crime - what a perversion of its intended purpose!

Words can cause that emotional reaction. A Sporting Carbine sounds an awful lot less likely to murder my children than an Assault Weapon. They chose assault weapon on purpose. We need to rename it.

+1 on this.

As I said in another thread on here, which also applies here and is thus worth repeating:

Watch people closely enough and you'll see people parrot "the truth" that they've heard on TV and radio, read in the newspaper and on the Internet, then that "truth" will be backed both other people who speak the same "truth." I'd be willing to bet that if you created some bs and posted it on all the mediums and started a trend about it on social networks, you could generate enough movement that people would treat it as a truth just because they've heard it repeated so many times from so many different sources.

To many people, perception IS reality.

[GunClasses.Net]

To many people, perception IS reality.

I agree it IS very important to not let public perception be maliciously mis-guided. I just think the MOST important thing is to not let that obscure what the real debate is actually about.

In my opinion, arguing clip vs magazine as I've heard a lot in various places lately is a waste of time and makes us look petty. As for the definition of Assault Rifle, I think this article says it pretty well: http://barkingwindow.com/?p=7534, though there are many good ones out there.