Different perspective on training?

[Jackpine Savage]

Take a look at Mike Seeklander's offerings. http://www.shooting-performance.com/Shooting-Performance/Training_Books.html

He's put together a structured training program that includes some of what you are looking for. I attended his Competition Handgun class last fall when he was in the Cities. I can say that he is an excellent instructor. I have his Competition Handgun training book and DVD's and I like them as well. His program includes dry fire exercises, live fire exercises, visual and mental prep, and a little on physical fitness. The DVDs go into technique. He has another book and related DVDs geared toward self defense.

It would be great if he was local but it sounds like he will be back in the Cities this year for a 3 gun class and advanced handgun.

[jshuberg]

I definitely believe that taking a class here or there, or practicing on your own is *not* the best way for a new shooter to become proficient. Unless there is someone with you who can diagnose issues before they develop into bad habits, and help you in becoming competent with the fundamentals, a newish shooter is going to be relying mainly on trial and error to figure out what works for them. The problem with this technique, is that it necessarily involves a lot of 'error' during training. This reinforces bad habits and becomes a hindrance down the road. In my estimation, 90% of the people I see at the range are not very proficient at shooting at all. Some of them are down right scary.

A real simple example of this, and something that I struggle with to this day is how (or more specifically where) to reload your weapon. Most of the time when a person does something with both hands that requires some dexterity, they do it somewhere between their waist and their chest and look down at what they're doing. This is why tables and desks are located at the height they are - it places objects at the optimal location in front of them for manipulation. However, this is *not* where you want to be loading your weapon. A person will out of habit look down at their weapon and insert the magazine and then bring it up in front of the target. Every time you load, you are reinforcing this technique. A person should instead bring their weapon up in front of them so that they are either looking at the target just above their weapon, or actually through the trigger guard. You should *never* look down or away from potential threats for any reason, including reloading. Not only does this break situational awareness, but in the case of a speed reload, introduces unnecessary and time consuming movement - bringing the weapon down, reloading, and then bringing it back up again. It also introduces additional time reacquire your sight picture. *Every* time you load your weapon, including admin loads, it should be done up in your workspace in front of your field of view. If you are not doing this, you're reinforcing bad habits.

This is just one example of the many dozens of things where the correct way to do something is not what comes naturally. A newish shooter really needs someone to point out what they're doing wrong when it happens to prevent reinforcing a bad technique. A person really needs either an instructor or competent shooting partner with them when they shoot until proper shooting technique becomes ingrained. Without someone knowledgeable watching you, you'll end up spending untold amounts of money on range time and ammo practicing and reinforcing poor technique. It can also take years to undo the damage caused by practicing bad habits. If a person wants to learn how to shoot well, they will end up saving a lot of money in the long run by simply getting it right in the first place.

[Erik_Pakieser]

Firearms training can be unique in that live fire requires specialized facilities which have limited availability. You have several options:

- Dry fire practice at home is good for practicing your form (grip - stance - sights - trigger control). You can also use dry practice for magazine changes, stoppages, and drawing your gun.

- Airsoft is not perfect but it's an option if you want to add shooting a projectile to your dry practice. You can safely us Airsoft in your basement or garage (I recommend with the door closed) with a hanging sheet or towel as a backstop.

- For live fire, I do my best to get to the range at least every other week. I always go to the range with a plan and shoot drills based on what I want to work on - trigger control, accuracy, reloads, stoppages, etc. While most ranges will not allow you to use your holster or do movement you can incorporate things like looking around/scanning and (very) short side-to-side movement, even in the confines of a range stall.

During the Spring, Summer, and Fall, the QSI classes offer a great training opportunity (forgive the shameless self-promotion). We offer multiple tiers of handgun, rifle, and shotgun courses, as well as low-light shooting and
"Drills and Skills" days which offer scenario-based shooting drills. Cost of each class is $120/person but we also offer a "season pass" where you can take as many QSI classes as you want for $1000. The average QSI class is a full day and you will shoot around 400 rounds.

The main thing is to always go to the range with a goal in mind, and work towards that goal. Always keep pushing the envelope to become a better shooter. If your speed is good, work for better accuracy. If your accuracy is good, try increasing your speed and range, or use smaller targets. Shooting is a perishable skill and you need to continually practice to get - and stay - good at it.

[jshuberg]

Another thing I've noticed is that every person I've ever worked with who was trained in martial arts naturally goes into a weaver-style stance, or a fighting stance where they are presenting themself at an angle to the target. It has been trained into them to go into this stance, but when dealing with a firearm, modern best practices recommend against taking an angled stance. At least while trying to master the fundamentals. This is easily one of the biggest things that martial arts guys have to initially overcome. You want to present yourself squarely to the target, both your hips and your shoulders. One of your feet can be slightly in front of the other for support, but everything from the hips up should be squared to the target.

There are several reasons for this. The first being that this is the easiest position to be able to consistently reproduce. The second is that your arms are now symmetrical in front of you, where if they were not it could introduce errors. At some point you'll want to shoot from angled or compromised positions, but initially you should be doing everything possible to maximize your mastering of the fundamentals. Also, if you find yourself in a situation where someone else has a gun, you want to present the thinnest target possible to them depth wise as opposed to width wise. If you are turned sideways or at an angle, you've increased the thickness of your body you are presenting to the bad guy, and if he lands a round it can do more internal damage than if you were squared with him. This is a highly unlikely scenario, but if your training for defensive shooting rather than competition, it's something to be aware of. Also, it's not beyond the realm of possibilities that body armor of some type will become more commonplace for the average person in the years or decades to come. Body armor is most effective at stopping a round that hits it directly, as apposed to at an angle. Again, while the notion of body armor and training for gun fights sounds very mall ninja-ish, if you're training for defensive purposes, it only makes sense to adopt those techniques that lend themself to higher survivability should the unthinkable happen and you are forced to use these skills.

I would recommend that when you dry fire, do it in front of a door mirror so you can catch yourself more easily if you fall back into an angled stance. Doing so will minimize to the greatest extent possible slight variations in stance and arm position which could interfere with developing and fine tuning your shooting skills. Train under ideal conditions until you become proficient, and then you can begin introducing adverse or more challenging conditions later.

[Erik_Pakieser]

All of the following is my own opinion, based on my own experience. I'm sure there will be disagreement.

I'm not saying you should use one stance or the other; I suggest both, and consider situations where one or the other would work best for you. Just like in martial arts, there are different options for different situations.

While I think that the isosceles stance has a time and place, we cannot forget that we are talking about fighting with a gun. It is conceivable that you may find yourself in a "fighting" stance before drawing your gun. For example, you may be fending off an attack that does not warrant deadly force, but when the threat of deadly force presents itself, you draw your gun. You would already be in a Weaver stance.

I'm not saying isosceles is not a good idea, but I feel that the best option for a shooter is to learn how to shoot in both isosceles and weaver positions, depending on circumstances. Isosceles works well for a target which is to your direct front, but when engaging targets at 90 degrees Weaver works better.

Weapon retention is also a consideration. In the traditional isosceles you push the gun out as far as it will go. This can "overextend" the shooter and leave the gun open to being grabbed. In a compact Weaver stance, the gun is closer to your body and more difficult to grab. As armed citizens, we need to be considerate of retention, and we are usually not wearing the body armor that isosceles benefits from.

[XDM45]

You won't find consistent training courses due to the sheer expense of such a facility and what it would cost the students.

What I recommend:

1. Attend at least one class a year, more if you are financially able to do so.
2. Practice with dry firing at home. Remove all ammunition from the room, use "snap caps" or other dummy rounds and practice drawing from concealment, practice trigger control/discipline, etc. If you use any long guns for defensive purposes, practice your techniques with those as well.
3. Purchase training DVDs from reputable instructors. Learn their material and practice with your firearm dry at home.
4. If you are able to practice your techniques live, do so. Not everyone can do so at their local ranges.
5. Shoot live ammunition at least once a month, focus on shooting fundamentals if you are unable to practice your other techniques due to range rules

This is one way that you can keep your skills up on a tighter budget.

Very practical, thank you.

+1 on this advice and all of the advice on this thread from jshuberg.

[jshuberg]

I have absolutely no disagreement. A person should absolutely train for a variety of conditions, including adverse or compromising conditions.

For a new shooter though, I recommend minimizing all of the variables possible so they can focus of the basics of trigger squeeze, sight alignment/picture, follow-through, etc without other issues getting in the way. An asymmetrical stance can have the effect of introducing errors that can complicate becoming proficient at the fundamentals. Specifically, shooting with asymmetrical shoulders or arms tends to make follow-through and rapid-fire a more difficult skill to acquire. Once a person becomes reasonably proficient, he should then begin introducing alternate stances or positions, wrong hand, wrong finger, wrong eye, etc. My point about minimizing your thickness to the target or squaring yourself with a vest was to explain that adopting a isosceles or modified isosceles stance does have applications beyond simply training to master the fundamentals.

There is no right or wrong answer, everyone is different and responds differently to different techniques. That being said, those people I've shot with who have had martial arts training did in fact progress more quickly after switching to an isosceles stance. YMMV.

[homerange]

... if you find yourself in a situation where someone else has a gun, you want to present the thinnest target possible to them depth wise as opposed to width wise.

Interesting -- this is *very* counter-intuitive to martial arts, as you mentioned. See, there are a lot of bad habits ingrained already. Every sport has its own best practices..

[Collector1337420]

For non-noob types, I agree competition is great, and almost more importantly, cheap, training.

Otherwise, the closest thing you're going to get to "combat" is paintball, and to a lesser extent, airsoft.

I agree that the training classes around here are generally, mostly lame. We don't have those awesome camps they have down south where you shoot thousands of rounds, but then again those are obviously pretty expensive, just for ammo alone, not to mention everything else.

[river_boater]

Otherwise, the closest thing you're going to get to "combat" is paintball, and to a lesser extent, airsoft.

A year from now, that may be all we have left.

[GunClasses.Net]

I have absolutely no disagreement. A person should absolutely train for a variety of conditions, including adverse or compromising conditions.

For a new shooter though, I recommend minimizing all of the variables possible so they can focus of the basics of trigger squeeze, sight alignment/picture, follow-through, etc without other issues getting in the way. An asymmetrical stance can have the effect of introducing errors that can complicate becoming proficient at the fundamentals. Specifically, shooting with asymmetrical shoulders or arms tends to make follow-through and rapid-fire a more difficult skill to acquire. Once a person becomes reasonably proficient, he should then begin introducing alternate stances or positions, wrong hand, wrong finger, wrong eye, etc. My point about minimizing your thickness to the target or squaring yourself with a vest was to explain that adopting a isosceles or modified isosceles stance does have applications beyond simply training to master the fundamentals.

There is no right or wrong answer, everyone is different and responds differently to different techniques. That being said, those people I've shot with who have had martial arts training did in fact progress more quickly after switching to an isosceles stance. YMMV.

jshuberg: yes... and...

Upper body mechanics overtake foot placement in importance during reaction to a dynamic situation threatening imminent death. Start this video at 5:10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bLUB2MMMeI Watch through to at least 6:31.

Don't discount the value of moving while shooting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDm9eHwfOqg. Many bad guys are within physical striking distance, or have accomplices, and there's no rule that in the streets, unlike Hollywood, the bad guy drops like a wet sack of flour at the moment the first bullet impacts. Plus, we draw the gun as our LAST resort, right? So, the situation by that point may have evolved, and everyone's moving/fighting at physical contact distance.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that, for beginners, it's ALL about the fundamentals -- or everything falls apart. When we begin shooting, we have to stand still and shoot at a target that doesn't move, so that we can BE steady in a dynamic situation.

However - after mastering the fundamentals, PLEASE don't stagnate! Once past the beginner phase, going to the indoor range and standing still in the stall, and shooting at the colorful paper zombie target that doesn't move, may hold you back from advancing as you could. Try out new positions and stances, multiple targets, shooting with the weak hand, reloading with one hand, clearing malfunctions, etc etc etc (as much as can be done while observing the range's safety rules!)

As you progress, add movement. There's a way to integrate dry fire and yes even airsoft into learning the body mechanics. (integrate, as in practice with and without live rounds). Just don't fool yourself into thinking that a recoil-less dry fire training session represents live fire, so do both live fire as well as dry fire. Follow up shots are entirely different in dry vs live, of course. A great benefit lost on many detractors of dry fire is the bodily stress you'll work up during those moving&shooting sessions. Your heart will start to race, your adrenaline will start to flow... (yeah! kind of like in a fight!) You'll learn/remember to breathe (too many people hold their breath during a fight of any kind!)... so, call it "aerobics for combat"? Being accurate and focused to move and shoot, while your heart rate exceeds 160bpm, is a whole new ballgame. I work it in with my at-home workouts, so I figure it just helps me lose a couple pounds of turkey, ham, stuffing, and potatoes that I've gained the last few weeks

Whatever your skill level, commit to doing a few sessions of practice each week by dry fire, AND also going to the range at least once a month and shoot a couple boxes. Bring a buddy to watch your form and technique; it not only helps you find where you can improve, but it keeps you committed to the training AND makes it a lot more fun.

[mikereilly]

Good trainers will work with you on something like this. I trained combat sports athletes for 20 years - Mostly MMA fighters, many who fought in the UFC, Strike Force, Bellator. Feel free to give me a call and lay out of long term training plan.
Contact me at Arnzen Arms

[GunClasses.Net]

Good trainers will work with you on something like this. I trained combat sports athletes for 20 years - Mostly MMA fighters, many who fought in the UFC, Strike Force, Bellator. Feel free to give me a call and lay out of long term training plan.
Contact me at Arnzen Arms

Great analogy, Mike. I see you're in Eden Prairie - where do offer your training?

Mike's 'right on the money'... how good would any athlete be if they never adapted their training to meet their needs, as their skills progress?

[jshuberg]

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that a recoil-less dry fire training session represents live fire, so do both live fire as well as dry fire. Follow up shots are entirely different in dry vs live, of course.

I agree with everything, especially the above quote. You can develop and practice a lot of things with dry fire. Stance, grip, drawing, movement, etc. With SIRT guns or LaserLyte training cartridges you can actually get some decent feedback as to where the bullet would hit, assisting in both aimed and point shooting. However, some of the most important skills cannot be exercised via dry fire - follow through, rapid fire, and the ability to visually track your sights through recoil. An incredible amount of insight can be gained by just by going to the range and watching yourself shoot 100 rounds slowly. Watch your sights, watch how the gun recoils and comes back to target, notice how minor variations in arm or grip position or grip pressure effect how the gun behaves as it cycles. The difference between shooting poorly and shooting well is measured in fractions of a millimeter, and fractions of a second. In order to perfect things at this level of detail, a person needs to observe themself at this level of detail, which is itself no easy feat. No amount of dry fire, air guns, training simulators, etc. will give you the real, accurate, and instantaneous feedback that simply observing how your gun behaves through the firing sequence will.

The most important end result of shooting a firearm is putting the bullet where you want it, every time. Once a person becomes reasonably proficient at this, then they need to begin working on putting the bullet where they want it while moving, or in low light, or under adverse conditions, etc. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of new shooters want to progress too quickly, and start introducing additional aspects before they should have. If you can't put a bullet where you want it under ideal conditions, there's very little benefit to trying (and failing) to put it where you want it under adverse conditions. I can understand wanting your shooting skills to become practical as quickly as possible, but people have to learn to walk before they can run. The reality is that shooting well is difficult, and learning to walk can take a good bit of time. Rushing the process often just ends up slowing it down in the long run.

[XDM45]

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that a recoil-less dry fire training session represents live fire, so do both live fire as well as dry fire. Follow up shots are entirely different in dry vs live, of course.

I agree with everything, especially the above quote. You can develop and practice a lot of things with dry fire. Stance, grip, drawing, movement, etc. With SIRT guns or LaserLyte training cartridges you can actually get some decent feedback as to where the bullet would hit, assisting in both aimed and point shooting. However, some of the most important skills cannot be exercised via fry fire - follow through, rapid fire, and the ability to visually track your sights through recoil. An incredible amount of insight can be gained by just by going to the range and watching yourself shoot 100 rounds slowly. Watch your sights, watch how the gun recoils and comes back to target, notice how minor variations in arm or grip position or grip pressure effect how the gun behaves as it cycles. The difference between shooting poorly and shooting well is measured in fractions of a millimeter, and fractions of a second. In order to perfect things at this level of detail, a person needs to observe themself at this level of detail, which is itself no easy feat. No amount of dry fire, air guns, training simulators, etc. will give you the real, accurate, and instantaneous feedback that simply observing how your gun behaves through the firing sequence will.

The most important end result of shooting a firearm is putting the bullet where you want it, every time. Once a person becomes reasonably proficient at this, then they need to begin working on putting the bullet where they want it while moving, or in low light, or under adverse conditions, etc. One thing I've noticed is that a lot of new shooters want to progress too quickly, and start introducing additional aspects before they should have. If you can't put a bullet where you want it under ideal conditions, there's very little benefit to trying (and failing) to put it where you want it under adverse conditions. I can understand wanting your shooting skills to become practical as quickly as possible, but people have to learn to walk before they can run. The reality is that shooting well is difficult, and learning to walk can take a good bit of time. Rushing the process often just ends up slowing it down in the long run.

I agree again.

I video taped myself at the range so I could slow things down frame by frame and check it out in detail, but it was a single camera setup. It'd be nice to have 3-4 cameras plus a GoCam on my head and then see it from different angles; but either way,right you are. There's a LOT of good advice on this thread. No matter how long you've been shooting, you can always learn more, perfect more, do more, listen more, teach more, and it never ends. I've been working with computers for almost 4 decades and I still learn every day. Learning is a lot like life itself because it's a process, not a destination.

Remember though that a gun isn't power, it's merely a tool of force which can be used. Although people call it a weapon (and legally it is a weapon), the true weapon is the user of it. Shooting is only one small facet of self-defense. Physical shape, martial arts, philosophy, these and much more are also parts which need to be considered, trained and honed as well. Too many times people only focus on the gun and training and not other things, like institutional awareness. They leave gaping holes.

Let me give an example.........

You can secure a network (not 100%, as nothing is ever 100% secure), but you can secure it to a point where it's locked down, but still usable. So, your network is now "secure".. That's great. You spent all this time, money, and effort on securing your network, but you didn't train users to lock the front door of the office, or to not leave keys laying about, or you used a cheap door instead of a solid steel door that's re-enforced, etc. You have a weak spot. There is ALWAYS a weak spot in every system, every situation, and others will exploit it if they can see it and know how to use that against you. So securing a network doesn't do any good if your door can be kicked in and your stuff stolen.

Security, which is what guns are really about, is a lifestyle. Security isn't a piece of software, hardware, configuration, locks, or anything else. Sure those things help, but it's about a lifestyle, a way of thinking, acting and being on a 24x7x365 basis. It's about being aware of everything within you, on you, and around you in all directions be it in a physical nature or otherwise. No one does this 100%, but I would wager most people do it far less than they need to. The fact that so many people use facebook is proof of that.