AR15 Lower Raw Forgings

[gearguy10]

So, you can't get your hands on any lowers right now without paying out the buttocks, but you can get your hands on raw forgings. A quick Google search shows several companies with forgings in stock and ready to ship from $35 to $65. Natchez has them for $49.

I read JAKL's thread about a finishing party in Feb. but there is no way I'm going to drive out there from the cities.

If a person were to order a forging or two, where in the Twin Cities could said person get that finished? Just curious.

[BemidjiDweller]

So, you can't get your hands on any lowers right now without paying out the buttocks, but you can get your hands on raw forgings. A quick Google search shows several companies with forgings in stock and ready to ship from $35 to $65. Natchez has them for $49.

I read JAKL's thread about a finishing party in Feb. but there is no way I'm going to drive out there from the cities.

If a person were to order a forging or two, where in the Twin Cities could said person get that finished? Just curious.

You could always carpool, I'm sure someone has a spot open for you.

In the cities, besides using a drill press, I'm not sure there are many machine shops who would be willing to 1: Let you use their equipment and 2: know that it is legal as long as you are pushing the button.

Edit: The ones at Natchez need much more than a drill press to finish. Regular 80%'rs only need the fire control area drilled out, which can be done with a press.

[FJ540]

It can be done manually with a turret mill (bridgeport), or possibly with a mini mill even (not sure if they have the needed quill travel or daylight to do the mag well or extension threading), but it's a labor intensive and set up intensive proposition. We're talking hours of work, many hours.

I'm pretty sure what Jakl is doing is buying a bunch of forgings, doing the 80% process ahead of time, then selling you the use of his machine to finish it off when you push the button - thus making you the operator who's creating the weapon. Not exactly gratifying, and no cheaper than getting an already done one (in fact, quite a bit more expensive when you consider the 4+ hours drive time, and then still needing to get it anodized). That's a lot of leg work to have a lower no one knows about IMO.

Machine shop rates run $40/hr up to $120/hr for the really fancy machines, but no one's worried about a 3 minute cycle time here, so $40/hr stuff would be perfectly fine. Think about what you're buying - $50 for 15 minutes run time, and he's coded it up for you. There's one dude having a ball at this thing, and he's not making any guns. Cha CHING!

Meanwhile, there's many retailers who are getting $120 finished lowers in stock daily, and you don't have to drive to BFE to get it.

[gearguy10]

I guess that answers that. I was just curious. Guess I'll keep my fingers crossed that things settle down soon.

[jakl]

So, you can't get your hands on any lowers right now without paying out the buttocks, but you can get your hands on raw forgings. A quick Google search shows several companies with forgings in stock and ready to ship from $35 to $65. Natchez has them for $49.

I read JAKL's thread about a finishing party in Feb. but there is no way I'm going to drive out there from the cities.

If a person were to order a forging or two, where in the Twin Cities could said person get that finished? Just curious.

With all due respect, you must not know what is involved in going from a raw forging to a 80%. Paying $49 for a raw forging and then paying $31 more to get to 80%? No way that is going to happen - anywhere. Forgings, purchased in large qty's are about $13 each, even less when you purchase a year's worth. So these guys are buying forgings for $13 and re-selling to you for $49 - without touching them.

Just for giggles - walk into a few machine shops in the Mpls area and see if they can help you - make sure to report back on what you find.

Not trying to be a jack>>>, but just some friendly comments and pointing out a few things that are being overlooked.

[jakl]

It can be done manually with a turret mill (bridgeport), or possibly with a mini mill even (not sure if they have the needed quill travel or daylight to do the mag well or extension threading), but it's a labor intensive and set up intensive proposition. We're talking hours of work, many hours.

I'm pretty sure what Jakl is doing is buying a bunch of forgings, doing the 80% process ahead of time, then selling you the use of his machine to finish it off when you push the button - thus making you the operator who's creating the weapon. Not exactly gratifying, and no cheaper than getting an already done one (in fact, quite a bit more expensive when you consider the 4+ hours drive time, and then still needing to get it anodized). That's a lot of leg work to have a lower no one knows about IMO.

Machine shop rates run $40/hr up to $120/hr for the really fancy machines, but no one's worried about a 3 minute cycle time here, so $40/hr stuff would be perfectly fine. Think about what you're buying - $50 for 15 minutes run time, and he's coded it up for you. There's one dude having a ball at this thing, and he's not making any guns. Cha CHING!

Meanwhile, there's many retailers who are getting $120 finished lowers in stock daily, and you don't have to drive to BFE to get it.

Uuhhhh...........you have no idea of what I am doing. I have no interest in machining lowers from forgings ahead of time. I am purchasing 80% lowers at $80 each - the same price you can get them. I am making no money on the forgings - look at my past posts - I clearly state that you can bring your own lower.

It seems you are missing one very important point of "machining your own" - no registration, no FFL, which in this day and age is very important and attractive to some people. It is also an opportunity for people to see and learn first hand a little bit about the mfg process. It is also a reason for like minded people to get together, learn something, and make new friends.

If you have the capability to do this at your place, lets move it! It would be much less driving for everyone, thus, much cheaper. If you can't do it, maybe you know a shop in the area, that will. I will drive up there and help out - for FREE, even - I just like hanging out with other gun guys and machinery.

[FJ540]

Seems like a waste to buy a 80% when you have a machining center and 25+ people willing to run through the process. My cnc mill is a lowly milltronics partner 1 without a tool changer (other than me ) and currently lacks an enclosure so flood coolant is not happening.

It'd make sense to do the set up from raw with that kind of volume. Especially since you'd be making $2K off doing it.

You might want 25 people in your shop, but I have trouble fitting 3. Not my idea of a good time, and no one I know with similar capabilities would want a hoard of people they'd never met around their machines either.

I've offered to GIVE my machine time and assistance away to finish an 80% to a couple people, and that offer still stands. Charging $50/ea to drill 2 holes and mill a pocket is a bit steep to me.

[jakl]

Seems like a waste to buy a 80% when you have a machining center and 25+ people willing to run through the process. My cnc mill is a lowly milltronics partner 1 without a tool changer (other than me ) and currently lacks an enclosure so flood coolant is not happening.

It'd make sense to do the set up from raw with that kind of volume. Especially since you'd be making $2K off doing it.

You might want 25 people in your shop, but I have trouble fitting 3. Not my idea of a good time, and no one I know with similar capabilities would want a hoard of people they'd never met around their machines either.

I've offered to GIVE my machine time and assistance away to finish an 80% to a couple people, and that offer still stands. Charging $50/ea to drill 2 holes and mill a pocket is a bit steep to me.

maybe you should ask me on how I plan on working this, ask how many sq feet my shop is, how many CNC's I have, etc. before you go making assumptions.

Its not my problem you can only fit 3 people in your garage. Not my problem that it isn't your idea of a good time. If you have offered up your services for free, has anyone taken you up on it? If not, why not? You are right there??

It seems apparent you don't use your milltronics to run a business. As far as the "CHA CHING" goes - think about this - my shop runs 6 days a week, every week. I have 6 cnc's. Normally at least 4 would be running on any given Saturday, running jobs and making money. Guess how many are going to be running on the day of the build party? One. The one that is machining lowers. Use your brain and do some math.

I knew, KNEW, that some jackhole would come along and piss in the fire. That, my friend, is you.

[FJ540]

How am I pissing in the fire? Sounds like you have some issues with me calling a spade a spade. Cha ching!

Btw, simple math says charging 300+ an hour is pretty much covering your "generosity" to shut things down.

[jakl]

How am I pissing in the fire? Sounds like you have some issues with me calling a spade a spade. Cha ching!

Btw, simple math says charging 300+ an hour is pretty much covering your "generosity" to shut things down.

Thanks for your input! Have a great night!

[grousemaster]

IBTL!!!!

(what happened to the little cartoon of the guy eating popcorn?)

[The Lance]

Btw, simple math says charging 300+ an hour is pretty much covering your "generosity" to shut things down.

As someone who has a masters in business the rate that he has isn't that ridiculous or even out there.. Personally since the shop has no competition I would charge 60-75bucks. It's a business no one is forced to participate. If you want to be their competition and coordinate and set up everything they have then please do so. It would really be better for everyone.

[FJ540]

He's not doing this for a business, remember - it's a party! Wooooo!!!!!!!


I stayed out of his thread and kept my mouth shut. But a new thread emerged asking about forgings, and here we are. "Santa" has his undies wound up because someone's putting numbers on his "generosity" that don't spin it as kindness...

If you want to go make lowers in southern BFE - have a great time! Just don't think it's a favor. You're paying a premium for what's being delivered.


I have no desire to have 25 people in my shop, nor do I want to be associated with such a concept no matter how legal it looks on paper. This is grey area I won't tread.

[jshuberg]

It is not a legal gray area. It is well established that an unlicensed individual can manufacturer their own firearms for personal use. And also that the engraving requirements do not apply to non-licensees until/unless the firearm is transferred to another individual.

A legal gray area is one where where there has been no determination or precedent that establishes which way a legal issue will go. That is not the case here. Thousands of people make their own firearms every year, and BATFE has put into writing that this is in fact legal.

I don't know why you seem to have such an issue with this.

[FJ540]

I don't have an 07 FFL. What you're talking about doing has been done before with businesses who have 07 FFL's - so it doesn't matter if someone at the ATF decided they were manufacturing guns, they'd only have to account for not putting their name on it and all that (they would - not me), not that a gun was produced on their machinery without proper licensing. That's not something that's been tried in court, so it very much is grey area, as it's an ATF determination away from being illegal.

Here's where it doesn't jive for me - jakl is providing you a semi complete lower they've "purchased", they've written the program, you've paid a full retail price for the finished product, and all you've done is come push the cycle start button. Who's manufacturing the firearm? Are you going to go to court and try to say you made it because you pushed cycle start? I want NOTHING to do with that.

What I've offered people is the use of my manual machine. They show up with their "paper weight," and I help them modify it with their own hands on my machinery into a legal firearm. That's a much better exposure to manufacturing IMO, and it's indisputable who MADE the gun.

The guy obviously makes a lot of gun parts, and that's cool - I like that. But saying this is a favor is a bit of a stretch. I hope for his sake he's got an 07 FFL. The CIA's been collecting all our posts about it from the get go and it's pretty damn ignorant to say "they don't know I have one" after blabbing it up here that you're going down there to make one.

So I'll say again - this seems like a lot of work to go through for an unfinished product.