Maybe I have this all wrong..........

[XDM45]

I only have my 2 firearms and since I'm not an FFL or someone who buys and sells guns (because once I buy it, I own it for life), I still have my rules for selling just in case I ever do sell one for whatever reason because I've given thought in advance as to how I'd handle the sale process:

1) PTP not allowed. Anyone can get one without training, therefore rule 2 comes into play.
2) Must have a current and valid Minnesota Permit To Carry (PTC) (They at least have to go through some sort of class to get the PTC, hopefully it's a good one. No such thing exists for a PTP.)
3) There will be legal documentation prepared by a lawyer I use, signed and witnessed listing the names, addresses, phone numbers of both parties. The documents will be notarized by a notary if possible at the time.
4) A photograph will be taken of the buyer's driver's license and PTC.
5) Cash only in full.
6) All rules are non-negotiable. Don't like it? I don't care. Don't buy a gun from me. It's about covering MY butt, not yours.

[xd ED]

Why go through all that bs?
Have an FFL do the transfer if you really want to cya.

[rockcreek]

Most private transactions at gun shows are totally legit. There are however, the few individuals who set up a table at show after show selling their "private collection, no paperwork". They are typically selling new guns at 25% or more than the same item from an FFL dealer. You have to ask yourself why someone would want to pay a premium for a gun "off the books". The thing is, these individuals are already breaking the law by engaging in the firearms business without a license, and the buyer is already breaking the law by even holding a firearm if they are a prohibited person. Perhaps the government could enforce the laws we already have if the "loophole" is the big problem they claim, rather than creating more new laws which would only put more restrictions on those who would feel obligated to follow them. As usual, it's not about the gun, it's about the control.

[xd ED]

If it was my show, I would not allow that, ( the non-FFL seller), if for no other reason than to support the FFLs that are buying space and running a real business.

[Holland&Holland]

Why don't they just make it so the buyer either shows a PTP or PTC then the background checks are good to go..................end of the f'n argument!

A lot of people here would say that is infringing on their rights.

And it is not? Are you required to use a realestate agent if you want to sell your house? Are you required to go to an autodealer to sell your car? Are you required to use Ebay to sell your cheap trinkets?

[bothwell]

Why don't they just make it so the buyer either shows a PTP or PTC then the background checks are good to go..................end of the f'n argument!

One issue would be states that don't need/use PTP/PTCs at all; and some don't for rifles. If you want to create a standard national PTP which applies to all arms (shotgun, rifle, pistol, scissors, etc.), then you'd have something truly evil... but less evil than a de-facto gun registry.

[FJ540]

Why don't they just make it so the buyer either shows a PTP or PTC then the background checks are good to go..................end of the f'n argument!

A lot of people here would say that is infringing on their rights.

And it is not? Are you required to use a realestate agent if you want to sell your house? Are you required to go to an autodealer to sell your car? Are you required to use Ebay to sell your cheap trinkets?

Hell must be getting chilly - I totally agree with H&H on this. Get the government out of our lives.

XD, you need to get out more too. 2 guns? Never selling either one of them? Really? It's a gun, not a lifetime commitment. Buy some more, have fun with them, when you stop having fun, sell, repeat.

[jshuberg]

I agree with XD. I'm not a dealer or collector. I wouldn't mind setting up as a manufacturer, but thats another story. Every firearm I buy I research, and I know exactly what I'm buying. I buy them to shoot, and don't intend to sell any of them. Even at today's crazy prices...

[XDM45]

Why go through all that bs?
Have an FFL do the transfer if you really want to cya.

Because if every gun goes through an FFL even between private parties, you basically have gun registration. It's how the antis want to get gun registration passed, without passing gun registration. Rather than have that option, they want it mandatory.

I can understand not wanting every gun I own going through an FFL, which unfortunately with my little 2 gun stash, is what I have since I bought both new.

[river_boater]

Why go through all that bs?
Have an FFL do the transfer if you really want to cya.

Because if every gun goes through an FFL even between private parties, you basically have gun registration. It's how the antis want to get gun registration passed, without passing gun registration. Rather than have that option, they want it mandatory.

I can understand not wanting every gun I own going through an FFL, which unfortunately with my little 2 gun stash, is what I have since I bought both new.

Unless they change current law, the data isn't retained permanently.

[FJ540]

The data IS retained permanently.

The 4473 stays with the FFL FOREVER, until the decide to close, and then it has to be delivered to the ATF for their permanent collection (they even tell you how many days you have to cough it up).

And don't kid yourself that they aren't keeping track of the number of NICS checks and what determination was made on all of them. OH OH OH, but they're not supposed to! Riiiiiiight... Just like they're not supposed to read your emails until they're over 6 months old, but they have their little super computers scanning them in real time "just in case!" The only thing they can't track is what you did with it once you walked out the store with the gun - which is precisely why I don't sell through FFL's unless it's out of state. Not that I'm afraid of who I'm selling to, but because the gov't doesn't effing need to know.

If the ATF ever knocks on my door asking about one of the hundred or so guns I've owned over the years, I can honestly tell them "I have no effen clue who has that one, I sold it to some dude X years ago." And the burden of proof lies on them.

[xd ED]

Why go through all that bs?
Have an FFL do the transfer if you really want to cya.

Because if every gun goes through an FFL even between private parties, you basically have gun registration. It's how the antis want to get gun registration passed, without passing gun registration. Rather than have that option, they want it mandatory.

I can understand not wanting every gun I own going through an FFL, which unfortunately with my little 2 gun stash, is what I have since I bought both new.

You said you wanted to cya in the event you sold something:

It's about covering MY butt, not yours.

How does selling through an FFL effect you in any way? It's actually proof you've rid yourself of the gun(s)

[FJ540]

Maybe Oldman Doug will chime in here, but he's been carted off by the fuzz on a gun he sold that turned up in unfavorable conditions.

Here's the gist of it, and why they want all that info impregnated into the receiver: When a gun is recovered at a crime scene, they see if someone claims ownership, and if not, they start fishing. They walk through that gun's life as far as they can, starting at birth and moving forward. So your Mfg has a log, and the distributor they sold it to has a log, and the FFL they sold it to has a log, and that brings them to the first legal private owner. Let's go pay that guy a visit - cause he doesn't have the gun, we do! And they keep fishing - who'd they sell it to? And so forth.

They don't need registration to harass and scare people - they're doing it right now.

[river_boater]

The 4473 stays with the FFL FOREVER, until the decide to close, and then it has to be delivered to the ATF for their permanent collection (they even tell you how many days you have to cough it up).

Twenty years is not forever. See here and here.

I honestly don't know how long the ATF keeps them, probably forever. I guess if you're transferring an "assault rifle" you just have to hope your FFL stays in business for more than five years afterwards, and twenty for everything else.

[FJ540]

You're still in their bound log book. There's no provision for purging that info ever.