The First Rule of Gun Safety

View · by **XDM45** on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:24 pm

I had a conversation with a good friend of mine tonight and to cut to the chase and point of this post about that conversation, he mentioned that one of his relatives told my friend's daughter to "treat all guns as if they were loaded." Now my friend's relative (who has extensive military experience and knows quite a bit about guns) gave some other good and very sound advice, but I explained to my friend that If you state to "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the "as if" part of that opens up doubt; meaning the gun isn't loaded, but treat it as if it is.

I disagree with this "as if" statement his relative made.

What I explained to him is that what I say is "treat all guns as loaded. Period." Unless I have personally taken a gun apart, it's loaded. There is a certainty in my statement of "treat all guns as loaded. Period." and that certainty and statement is not there when "as if" is used such as in "treat all guns as if they were loaded".I think that "as is" really changes the statement and opens up for doubt, uncertainty, and to presume the gun is unloaded, but to treat it as loaded; and to me, that's a very dangerous mindset to be in when handling any firearm.

Regarding the other rules of basic gun safety, we don't say "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy with a loaded gun"; no, we don't say that. The rule is "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy." Period. There is a finality in that. It's a statement of fact. There is no doubt in your mind. No "as is" to open that up.

My friend pointed out that in both statements (mine) "treat all guns as loaded" and his "treat all guns as if they were loaded", the doubt is only being created in my mind, and that in both cases, you're treating the firearm with respect to having a loaded chamber; but I see a difference between the two statements and that "as if" largely changes the meaning of that statement as well as opens up for a dangerous, doubtful mindset when handling firearms.

What do you say and think?

Discuss.

View · by **Evad** on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:42 pm

Since I dry fire practice at home...I treat guns as loaded until I know they aren't and have double checked.

I don't want my walls destroyed, or things around my house...but I do point a gun at them and pull the trigger.

Not sure where that puts me.

View · by **peckerhead** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:37 am

The "as-if" part comes into play because we always check condition every single time we handle a firearm, especially those who carry. Even though we absolutely know beyond a doubt that the firearm in question is loaded/unloaded, we look anyway. Therefore, since we have literally just opened the action and verified the fact that the firearm we're handling is indeed unloaded, we still handle it as if it were loaded.

View · by **45Badger** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:19 am

Your friend is correct. You are parsing almost meaningless differences. In any but the most anal retentive view, you are saying the same thing. If a gun owner is that anal retentive in their thinking about safety (a good thing!) there will be no objective difference in outcome.

View · by **870TC** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:54 am

I would put this one in the same category as the "great clips and magazines debate" :roll:

View · by **XDM45** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:55 am

870TC wrote:I would put this one in the same category as the "great clips and magazines debate"

Well, I did it to see how many people with a PTC, actually C.

View · by **TH3180** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:29 am

XDM45 wrote:
870TC wrote:I would put this one in the same category as the "great clips and magazines debate"

Well, I did it to see how many people with a PTC, actually C.

So is this thread only for people with a PTC?

View · by **20mm** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:31 am

I get sick of people giving me dirty looks in gun stores when I look down the barrel of a pistol or rifle. Apparently they think a gun with an open chamber and a finger/light in it is still dangerous.

View · by **rugersol** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:41 am

Weren't always 4 rules ... we got Jeff Cooper to thank fer that!

Cooper wrote: 1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

That "always treat it" deal is really jest a matter of "when" ya abide the other three!

However, "never" in "never point it at anything" is otherwise sufficient.

If his 3rd rule read "never allow your finger inside the trigger-guard, until on target", that'd be sufficient, as well.

NRA don't help too much ...

NRA wrote:1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

NRA really drops the ball with #3 ... clearly, it should otherwise be "know yer target, and beyond"! :roll:

Unfortunately, USPSA don't seem to see fit to publish 'em! Past that, I know of no other greater authority.

With my own kids, I simply say ...

"Loaded 'er not, never point a gun at anyone!"

"Loaded 'er not, never stick yer finger inside the trigger-guard"

"Bullets go through 2x4's, and all kinds of other stuff" (I have 'em pass around a chunk of 2x4, at the same time)

... fer my kids, I do add my own 4th rule ...

"If it's got a bright orange muzzle, it MIGHT be a toy ... anything else, all the above, applies!"

I also find it helps ... with kids ... shortening up everything into something they can remember ... to recall the rest ... helps a great deal! At which, when quizzing 'em, all I gotta say is "point", and they can recite the whole rule ... "trigger-guard", same deal ... "2x4" ... and "orange".

View · by **t140** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:51 am

What is the root meaning of this rule?

View · by **XDM45** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:10 am

TH3180 wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
870TC wrote:I would put this one in the same category as the "great clips and magazines debate"

Well, I did it to see how many people with a PTC, actually C.

So is this thread only for people with a PTC?

Well, I hope you aren't carrying without a PTC.

View · by **TH3180** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:33 am

XDM45 wrote:
TH3180 wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
Well, I did it to see how many people with a PTC, actually C.

So is this thread only for people with a PTC?

Well, I hope you aren't carrying without a PTC.

I just kind of figured these rules applied to everyone. Not just the special people that have a PTC.

View · by **mmhoium** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:43 am

Funny, I was just reading a chapter in Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" last night and he was talking about treating guns as loaded. His solution, keep all his guns loaded at all times. He said when someone came over to see his guns, he hands it to the person telling them the gun is loaded. People were much more careful, didn't needlessly snap the cylinder in and out, or dry fire guns he didn't want dry fired. Probably not the best idea, but it worked for him. For me, I can be completely confident that the chamber is empty (i just checked it), but I still handle it as if the hammer was back on a loaded chamber - that works for me, even though I know in the back of my head its empty.

View · by **XDM45** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:25 am

mmhoium wrote:Funny, I was just reading a chapter in Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" last night and he was talking about treating guns as loaded. His solution, keep all his guns loaded at all times. He said when someone came over to see his guns, he hands it to the person telling them the gun is loaded. People were much more careful, didn't needlessly snap the cylinder in and out, or dry fire guns he didn't want dry fired. Probably not the best idea, but it worked for him. For me, I can be completely confident that the chamber is empty (i just checked it), but I still handle it as if the hammer was back on a loaded chamber - that works for me, even though I know in the back of my head its empty.

See, that was my entire point to my friend about the "as is" statement. As you wrote "even though I know in the back of my head its empty". If one says "all guns are loaded." that is a statement with finality and no doubt; whereas if "treat all guns as if they are loaded" is said or thought, then that can lead to that doubt or thoughts that "even though I know in the back of my head its empty". Again, that was the entire point to my friend. We eventually agreed to disagree.

View · by **jdege** on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:13 pm

The way I see it it doesn't have anything to do with whether a gun is loaded or not. I always handle a gun the same way, regardless.

It's not that it might be loaded when I think it isn't that will get me in trouble, it's developing bad habits.

Gun safety isn't a matter of what you do when you're thinking about it, it's what you do when you're not thinking about it that matters. And that's a matter of habit and routine.

So I practice muzzle control and keep my finger off the trigger even when I pick up a water pistol.