SPLIT ** General conversation about how ranges should be run

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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby XDM45 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:56 am

walstien wrote:
XDM45 wrote:
Slayer_MN1 wrote:I think you mean if suppressors were legal.. only people that describe magazines as clips call suppressors silencers ;-)


Good call. The correct term is suppressor and I don't call magazines clips. I'll edit the post. It's important to use the correct terminology.


No, its not important to use the right terrminology.

Its important to not be condescending or rude to folks new to our sport. Its important to be helpful and pleasant, even tollerant of those with less experience handling firearms, and to help them learn, rather than shaming them.

Its important to try to be supportive of businesses and folks who more commonly stand with us rather than against us.

Its important to unite rather than divide. We have enough folks out there who don't believe we should have any firearms at all, we certainly don't need any more members of OUR community hacking on one another.

Its important to be nice to one of the THOUSANDS of people who have recently taken interest in our sport. Try to be patient when they screw up. Keep it safe, but no need to chastise and embarrass a newbie. Make them feel unwelcome and they will walk away unwilling to support us.

If you haven't made a mistake in your life, then good for you. Try your best to tollerate being on this planet with the rest of us imperfect slobs.

Today I'll go to the range and try to give some helpful pointers to someone who looks lost. I'll bring my AR-15 with extra ammo and when someone looks at it funny I'll invite them to shoot it... as much as they want. I'll be nice to a woman or a child who looks intimidated by all the noise and comfort them by making a joke or offering a .22 for them to shoot. If I see someone being unsafe I'll immidiatly correct their action and then engage them in discussion to try to take the sting out of being publicly corrected.

Remember Dalton's rule from Roadhouse - "Be nice".


I think you, Brad and I are more alike than not. I've brought extra ammo, let people used my guns, acted as an RSO which everyone is when on the range, etc. Nope, I won't look down at someone for saying "clip" when it's a magazine, but I'll educate them. Words have power, meaning, if the proposed bills passed into law and instead of (10 round magazines) being banned, they used "10 ball gum ball machines", guess which one is banned?

Nuances matter. Proper terminology matters. No, that doesn't mean you need to be rude about it, but educating people is important. I always try and educate people (nicely) because ignorance is forgivable, but stupidity is not. Ignorance means you don't know, or even that you don't know that you should know something in the first place and don't. Stupidity is you know and don't care, so you proceed counter to the knowledge anyway.

Believe me, I'm an expert at figuring things out when people use incorrect terminology. I work in the IT field and anyone who does can do the same thing. "I was PPPing into my router download space to synch up the TCP to the download file in my email. Can you help me?????" Yeah. Clearly, it doesn't make since, it's incorrect, but the basic deal is they are having an email issue, so I start there. Incorrect terms or incorrectly used terms cause confusion and waste time, money and other valuable resources. There's a difference between upload and download, both are transferring data, but it's a completely different direction. There's a difference between clip and magazine, both hold ammo, but in a completely different way.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby walstien on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:21 am

Nick Burns, your company's IT guy

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When I see five weirdos dressed in togas stabbing a guy in the middle of the park in full view of 100 people, I shoot the bastards. That's my policy.

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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby XDM45 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:40 am

walstien wrote:Nick Burns, your company's IT guy

Image


Nick's first mistake - dealing with end-users and desktop support. That is the lowest circle of true IT Hell there is.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby BigBlue on Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:44 am

XDM45 wrote:I think you, Brad and I are more alike than not. I've brought extra ammo, let people used my guns, acted as an RSO which everyone is when on the range, etc. Nope, I won't look down at someone for saying "clip" when it's a magazine, but I'll educate them. Words have power, meaning, if the proposed bills passed into law and instead of (10 round magazines) being banned, they used "10 ball gum ball machines", guess which one is banned?

Nuances matter. Proper terminology matters. No, that doesn't mean you need to be rude about it, but educating people is important. I always try and educate people (nicely) because ignorance is forgivable, but stupidity is not. Ignorance means you don't know, or even that you don't know that you should know something in the first place and don't. Stupidity is you know and don't care, so you proceed counter to the knowledge anyway.

Believe me, I'm an expert at figuring things out when people use incorrect terminology. I work in the IT field and anyone who does can do the same thing. "I was PPPing into my router download space to synch up the TCP to the download file in my email. Can you help me?????" Yeah. Clearly, it doesn't make since, it's incorrect, but the basic deal is they are having an email issue, so I start there. Incorrect terms or incorrectly used terms cause confusion and waste time, money and other valuable resources. There's a difference between upload and download, both are transferring data, but it's a completely different direction. There's a difference between clip and magazine, both hold ammo, but in a completely different way.


XDM45 wrote:5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.


One of these things is not like the other one...
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby Paul on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:11 pm

XDM45 wrote:So they are shooting 164,1 feet (or basically a little over half a football field away). Yeah, that's somewhat close for a rifle, in my opinion. Not as bad as what I've seen for ranges around here. That place isn't even in MN is it?


What about folks who use AR's for home defense? Most home defense shootings don't occur at distances of 400+ yards... Isn't it reasonable that they should practice at shorter distances... 50 yards or less?
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby Nalez on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:57 pm

Snowgun wrote:Bills provides a great service to the shooting community. While i still think they need an RO in the bays at all times when it is busy, they do their best.

This is kind of how I feel about the topic. I do think that safety should be in the forefront of everyone’s mind, especially new shooters, and Bill's could use some additional supervision. I do think that they are understaffed, when its busy it seems like everyone is running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I don’t know if they are understaffed because they cant find people, or they cant hire more people to keep the business profitable. If it is the latter, it is a tough call to make. I think this community would be at a great loss if businesses like Bills and BPR where not able to survive.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby XDM45 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:07 pm

Paul wrote:
XDM45 wrote:So they are shooting 164,1 feet (or basically a little over half a football field away). Yeah, that's somewhat close for a rifle, in my opinion. Not as bad as what I've seen for ranges around here. That place isn't even in MN is it?


What about folks who use AR's for home defense? Most home defense shootings don't occur at distances of 400+ yards... Isn't it reasonable that they should practice at shorter distances... 50 yards or less?


Their choice but a pistol is better for CQC I think.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby Paul on Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:25 pm

XDM45 wrote:
Paul wrote:
XDM45 wrote:So they are shooting 164,1 feet (or basically a little over half a football field away). Yeah, that's somewhat close for a rifle, in my opinion. Not as bad as what I've seen for ranges around here. That place isn't even in MN is it?


What about folks who use AR's for home defense? Most home defense shootings don't occur at distances of 400+ yards... Isn't it reasonable that they should practice at shorter distances... 50 yards or less?


Their choice but a pistol is better for CQC I think.


You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby Ron Burgundy on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:09 pm

Paul wrote:
You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.

FTW!
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby meddin on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:12 pm

xd ED wrote:
Sarge_44 wrote:I just read on their website that steel is a no go for their range


Liberal Gun Owner


You might want to check that. Steel projectiles are a no-no, as are aluminum cases. I've seen lots of steel cases rolling around on the floor.


Steel cased ammo is fine. As XD Ed said, no steel core projectiles, and no aluminum cases.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby meddin on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:17 pm

XDM45 wrote:3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.


Is this some kind of joke? Since you have said multiple times you have only two guns, and both are handguns, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I went to Bill's north yesterday, and had a great time shooting my .22 and .223 rifles. Struck up a conversation with the guy on the next lane, and he was kind enough to let me shoot his Ruger No. 1 rifle in .458 Lott. That was fun. Thank God he didn't realize that bringing that thing to an indoor range was pointless :roll:
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby ex-LT on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:27 pm

XDM45 wrote:...
3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you meant to type 40 yards. However, after reading your ensuing posts, it appears you really meant 400. I hate to burst your bubble, but the number of clubs in Minnesota with ranges out to 400 yards can be counted on one hand (IIRC, you might even have a finger left over). Hell, I grew up on a farm, and we wouldn't have had room to put in a 400 yard range.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby xd ED on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Paul wrote:
You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.


And these guys too, before someone gets hurted!
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Marine special operators with Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, MARSOC,
and Navy corpsmen practise close quarters combat (CQB) drills during Emerald Warrior 2012,
a series of exercises involving special operations forces.
MARSOC's fighting force are the Marine Special Operations Battalions (MSOB).
MSOBs are highly proficient at Direct Action (DA), Special Reconnaissance (SR)
and Foreign Internal Defence (FID) operations. Many MSOB operators are former Force Reconnaissance Marines.
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My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby jshuberg on Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:34 pm

I often bring my short barrel machine gun to Bill's Robbinsdale and dump 100 rounds in a single trigger pull. Thank you for letting me know I've been wrong this whole time.
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Re: My view from the range at Bill's in Robbinsdale today

Postby XDM45 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:58 pm

Paul wrote:You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.


If there's cover that a pistol round can't penetrate, then yes, I could see a rifle being used in CQC, but you're a lot more maneuverable with a pistol than some big or even smaller sized rifle. I'm sure the deciding factors in SWAT using rifles over pistols is that rifles hold more ammo and can penetrate some cover that pistol rounds cannot, so why switch mid-fight? Use a rifle. I get that. It makes sense in that situation. It's the same reason the military uses them (and then some, but that's going too far down the rabbit hole). In a SWAT/military situation, I'd have a gas mask too, but I don't really need one for home defense unless James Holmes is going to rob me, now do I?

I guess I should specify it a bit further since some ire has been induced. Next time I'll write like a lawyer and try and be as all inclusive as possible.

For the average home owner who doesn't have brick / steel interior walls, swinging a rifle around like John Rambo makes as much sense as swinging a DE 50 does for home defense, but hey, to each their own. My point of view was and is coming from your average home owner not living in a warzone, not in the military, not on a SWAT team, just John Q Public Home Owner. I don't know what percentage of pistols vs. rifles used for home defense are, but there's probably more pistols kept on a nightstand than AR-15s; and I'm not saying rifles should NEVER be used in CQC situations either, I'm just saying for the average home owner, is that really the best first choice? To each their own. My .45ACP works just fine.
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