SPLIT ** General conversation about how ranges should be run

[meddin]

I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't over penetration be less of an issue in a home defense situation than an AR in .223? Also, not to mention, the 'ire' that has been generated seems to be more about your assertion that shooting a rifle at any distance less than 400yds is a waste of time. I vehemently disagree with that assertion. Its not a wast of time for a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

-it's fun
-trigger work practice
-not everyone has private land or access to a 400yd + range
-etc...

[xd ED]

The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

[Paul]

You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.

If there's cover that a pistol round can't penetrate, then yes, I could see a rifle being used in CQC, but you're a lot mokqre maneuverable with a pistol than some big or even smaller sized rifle. I'm sure the deciding factors in SWAT using rifles over pistols is that rifles hold more ammo and can penetrate some cover that pistol rounds cannot, so why switch mid-fight? Use a rifle. I get that. It makes sense in that situation. It's the same reason the military uses them (and then some, but that's going too far down the rabbit hole). In a SWAT/military situation, I'd have a gas mask too, but I don't really need one for home defense unless James Holmes is going to rob me, now do I?

I guess I should specify it a bit further since some ire has been induced. Next time I'll write like a lawyer and try and be as all inclusive as possible.

For the average home owner who doesn't have brick / steel interior walls, swinging a rifle around like John Rambo makes as much sense as swinging a DE 50 does for home defense, but hey, to each their own. My point of view was and is coming from your average home owner not living in a warzone, not in the military, not on a SWAT team, just John Q Public Home Owner. I don't know what percentage of pistols vs. rifles used for home defense are, but there's probably more pistols kept on a nightstand than AR-15s; and I'm not saying rifles should NEVER be used in CQC situations either, I'm just saying for the average home owner, is that really the best first choice? To each their own. My .45ACP works just fine.

You should do some research into penetration of appropriate .223 rounds in sheetrock.

[LePetomane]

I was in Bill's the other day when someone brought in an uncased AR. Two employees were on this guy fast, informing his of proper protocol. I've witnessed employees come into the range informing shooters of proper protocol.

Metro in Blaine is unsupervised, the air quality is poor and there are bullet holes in the ceiling. I witnessed one breach of safety a few years ago and have not been back.

[Paul]

I was in Bill's the other day when someone brought in an uncased AR. Two employees were on this guy fast, informing his of proper protocol. I've witnessed employees come into the range informing shooters of proper protocol.

Metro in Blaine is unsupervised, the air quality is poor and there are bullet holes in the ceiling. I witnessed one breach of safety a few years ago and have not been back.

Look up at any indoor range and you will likely see bullet holes where there shouldn't be any.

[t140]

You should contact every SWAT team in America and let them know they are doing it wrong.

If there's cover that a pistol round can't penetrate, then yes, I could see a rifle being used in CQC, but you're a lot more maneuverable with a pistol than some big or even smaller sized rifle. I'm sure the deciding factors in SWAT using rifles over pistols is that rifles hold more ammo and can penetrate some cover that pistol rounds cannot, so why switch mid-fight? Use a rifle. I get that. It makes sense in that situation. It's the same reason the military uses them (and then some, but that's going too far down the rabbit hole). In a SWAT/military situation, I'd have a gas mask too, but I don't really need one for home defense unless James Holmes is going to rob me, now do I?

I guess I should specify it a bit further since some ire has been induced. Next time I'll write like a lawyer and try and be as all inclusive as possible.

For the average home owner who doesn't have brick / steel interior walls, swinging a rifle around like John Rambo makes as much sense as swinging a DE 50 does for home defense, but hey, to each their own. My point of view was and is coming from your average home owner not living in a warzone, not in the military, not on a SWAT team, just John Q Public Home Owner. I don't know what percentage of pistols vs. rifles used for home defense are, but there's probably more pistols kept on a nightstand than AR-15s; and I'm not saying rifles should NEVER be used in CQC situations either, I'm just saying for the average home owner, is that really the best first choice? To each their own. My .45ACP works just fine.

Your ballistics are wrong. 9mm penetrates barriers EASIER than .223. The FBI uses handguns and mp5s in such situations where they need to shoot through concealment. 62 grains vs 147 makes a huge difference.

Example: we were trying to win hearts and minds in Iraq. If over penetration was an issue, m4s wouldn't have been used.

[grousemaster]

I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't over penetration be less of an issue in a home defense situation than an AR in .223? Also, not to mention, the 'ire' that has been generated seems to be more about your assertion that shooting a rifle at any distance less than 400yds is a waste of time. I vehemently disagree with that assertion. Its not a wast of time for a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

-it's fun
-trigger work practice
-not everyone has private land or access to a 400yd + range
-etc...

A rifle is almost always a superior option. A pistol is not even close in stopping power (obviously I'm talking about the big magnum revolvers here).

[grousemaster]

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

Really? To fire a weapon at a controlled range?

[grousemaster]

+1 for ALL of sgruenhagen44's posts on page 5.

@All,

There are Bill's employees who are on this forum and trust me, they know, but they can't post because they can't speak for Bill's, but you can bet your last dollar, they've mentioned it to management I'm sure. Public forums can do a lot more than talking to management after trying and failing at that. Google "United Breaks Guitars" and "Sons of Maxwell" read up on what he did. This thread on this forum is EXACTLY what's needed. I've also mentioned things with no results in the past.

As for BPR, yes, I've seen things there, BUT never by the staff. As for the clientele at BPR, I've never been swept, but I have busted people loading on the tables, and overall, they do seem to be more knowledgeable because it's not a RABS (rent-a-boomstick) place.

I also agree about the comment that people should be booted at the first negligent act. There's no room for negligence like loading a pistol on a table behind the firing line, sweeping the place, and all the other not-so-safe-things people do. If I owned a range, I'd run it that way. The rules are simple actually:

1) Violate the 4 rules of firearm safety (you should know what they are or not handle a firearm) and you're out of here.
(This covers sweeping, loading on the table behind the firing line, etc.)

2) You MUST have one of the following to shoot at the range.
2a) A valid Minnesota PTP with proof of a basic pistol class training within 3 years time (some people may just keep renewing their PTP)
2b) A valid Minnesota PTC.
2c) A valid out-of-state PTP or PTC will be accepted IF the primary person you are with has a valid Minnesota PTC.

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless. It's like firing a pistol at a target 1 foot away from your nose.Rifles = distance. Use the outdoor range. Same thing for shotguns, trap, skeet, all outdoors.

4) No aluminum casings and no steel rounds. Nothing over a certain fps indoors our outdoors. (Depends on the range's construction indoor and the available space outdoor, but ideally, land space would be 2-3 square miles)

5) It's a "magazine" not a "clip" - unless it really is a clip. In other words, don't annoy me and not know what the hell you're talking about.

6) If you can safely handle and control your firearm, feel free to rapid fire it.

7) We don't rent firearms. Man up and buy one like any freedom loving American does. I get trying before buying, a good idea, but if you just want to rent and not own a firearm, GTFO.

There'd be some other rules too, but those are the first ones I'd implement. I know it's not all-inclusive by any means (and what list really is anyway?), but it's a great start, don't you agree?

Wow.....just got caught up on this thread.

[jshuberg]

Look up at any indoor range and you will likely see bullet holes where there shouldn't be any.

The MPD range in north Minneapolis is peppered with bullet impacts all over the place. It's worse than Bill's actually. The HTC LEO training range in Brooklyn Park is actually not that bad, much better than MPD or Bill's. Some places are worse than others.

[Countryfried Frank]

I watched a guy one lane from me burn through 30 round mags almost all "rapid fire" (one a second or so). I have to assume he was showing off how fast he could spend money or doing jam testing when I saw the paper.

That sounds like me. If it was, I was function testing a few new mags (2 passed, 1 failed) and I was getting some recoil cycles on a new sight mount which also failed (my fault, not the mount). I'll keep this thread in mind the next time I get a new non-magnified red dot so I know to only run it at 400. Where is Heffay with his famous 'operators' line?

[jshuberg]

By the way, for anyone interested, I tested those PMag knockoffs at Robbinsdale through the machine gun last weekend. Not a single malfunction with around 300 rounds through it. Did several 30 round dumps, and they ran like a clock. For some reason the bolt carrier wasn't locking back for me, but with other rifles they were locking back just fine. They have quite a few of them, and while not an actual PMag, anyone needing a few 30 round mags would find these a decent and available alternative.

[justsomeguy]

You some sort of business competitor, or ex-employee of Bill's?

I'm neither.

I'm a gun owner who doesn't want to get shot by one of the rent-a-boomstick-crowd and be around anyone negligent with a firearm.

and a blow hard who doesn't know much about guns.

[Lunchbox]

Look up at any indoor range and you will likely see bullet holes where there shouldn't be any.

The MPD range in north Minneapolis is peppered with bullet impacts all over the place. It's worse than Bill's actually. The HTC LEO training range in Brooklyn Park is actually not that bad, much better than MPD or Bill's. Some places are worse than others.

That's because it's new... Give it time. May take a long time to get as bad as a general public range maybe. Who knows they may redo the range every few years cause they have the budget to do so.

[jshuberg]

True, but it also could be that because its a training facility, a significant percentage of the shooting thats done there is instructor supervised. People doing wild-west tricksy crap that's beyond their ability is likely kept to a minimum.