Serious questions from gun owner re registration, other laws

[The Possum]

I grew up with guns, own a number of them, and use them. I want you to know that, given what I will ask.

I hope we can all agree on a couple of things:
1) The number of people killed and injured by firearms in our nation is truly tragic.
2) The rate of deaths and injuries by firearm in the U.S. is far higher than it is in most other nations, including some where owning firearms is legal and common.
3) We all want to reduce the deaths and injuries from firearms in our nations.

I have searched MNGunTalk for serious proposals for bringing about #3. And I don't find them. Instead, I find thousands of posts arguing AGAINST proposals by others. Now, my not find them may be a failure on my part. But I did try.

I do find claims that the solution is to identify people who will attempt to murder before they do. But I've not found serious, detailed proposals for how to do that better than we do now. Worse, I find complete rejection of some proposals that I believe are intended to be part of that solution. For example, those proposing that all sales of firearms be routed through a mechanism that includes a background check. Or those trying to improve the effectiveness of those background checks by requiring all agencies to contribute the relevant records to the databases used for those background checks. Or, those requiring that all firearms be registered.

I invite you to post or point me to SERIOUS, REALISTIC, proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

Thank you.

[TH3180]

I invite you to post or point me to SERIOUS, REALISTIC, proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.
Thank you.

You first.

[EastSideRich]

If the goal is to reduce the number of "gun deaths", the answer is simple: end the "war on drugs".
Unfortunately that is not what is driving the push for "gun control".
it will not even be addressed, as the goal is solely to disarm our population.

universal background checks is just a means to make confiscation easier. it would not have stopped any of the mass shootings we've seen, and will not affect the overall murder rate.
it will however serve to dismantle the 2A.

EDIT: also, if the goal is to prevent school shootings (which is what triggered this whole debate) that is also simple; allow teachers to carry concealed weapons - problem solved.



Sent from my phone

[antimatter]

Why not do some research to find out what would be effective solutions before we make a lot of changes to the law? We repeal the law that prevents the CDC and academics from researching gun violence and prevention, and let people do peer-reviewed data for 5 years before we start making restrictions. That would be my suggestion.

"In God We Trust, All Others Bring Data."

[tazdevil]

1: Better education on firearms.

2: Much better (like complete overhaul) of our mental health system.


That's a start. Registration of firearms only gives the Government and other "entities" a idea of the law abiding firearms that are owned, and where to go to confiscate them. Does NOTHING to remove firearms off the city streets (how well does that work for Chicago or DC again??).

To answer your statements:

1: Yes, and what's also tragic is those that lie about other nations murder rates with "other than gun" weapons, and how much closer the TOTAL murder rates become. Or those that use tragedy to promote their agendas instead of relying on facts.

2: No Country outside the US has the same rate of firearm ownership, and what you get from some of these countries is their "fact" reporting. I'll give you a example that Britain is still known to try in the medical world as fact "management". Some point out our infant death rates are higher than Britain's, even though our medical care for infant/preemie's is far better than anything they have. Problem is, they don't report a infant born as a preemie, that then dies because of being to premature, as a infant death. We do, any infant born, even at term so early the infant is nonviable, that then perishes is recorded in the U.S. as a infant death.

3: Yes. But not at the expense of increased risk to law abiding gun owners from criminals. Remember, pass all the laws you wish, all you do is punish the law abiding citizen's. Criminals have never, and will never obey the law. That's why we call them criminals. Even the case in MN of a known felon purchasing and having in possession firearms (very illegal) wasn't stopped when that person knowingly lied on the 4473 about being a felon. Due to the holes in the NICS database, this person still was able to buy firearms (all the while knowing it was illegal for them to do so).



So now I ask you the same question, give us some SERIOUS, REALISTIC, and non-rights infringing proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

[xd ED]

I grew up with guns, own a number of them, and use them. I want you to know that, given what I will ask.

I hope we can all agree on a couple of things:
1) The number of people killed and injured by firearms in our nation is truly tragic.
2) The rate of deaths and injuries by firearm in the U.S. is far higher than it is in most other nations, including some where owning firearms is legal and common.
3) We all want to reduce the deaths and injuries from firearms in our nations.

I have searched MNGunTalk for serious proposals for bringing about #3. And I don't find them. Instead, I find thousands of posts arguing AGAINST proposals by others. Now, my not find them may be a failure on my part. But I did try.

I do find claims that the solution is to identify people who will attempt to murder before they do. But I've not found serious, detailed proposals for how to do that better than we do now. Worse, I find complete rejection of some proposals that I believe are intended to be part of that solution. For example, those proposing that all sales of firearms be routed through a mechanism that includes a background check. Or those trying to improve the effectiveness of those background checks by requiring all agencies to contribute the relevant records to the databases used for those background checks. Or, those requiring that all firearms be registered.


I invite you to post or point me to SERIOUS, REALISTIC, proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

Thank you.

1)Any premature loss of life is tragic. I'm pretty sure distracted/ drunk/ incapacitated drivers kill and injure to a greater severity than do firearms
2) Depends how you slice that up- some can prove that the USA is the safest place on Earth regarding firearm casualties: deaths per firearm/ armed individual is the lowest in the world
3)If you intentionally used the word 'nations', then I'll disagree with that as well

Eliminating symptoms doesn't cure disease.

Do you see any behavioral or demographic issues within current urban society (therein lies the vast majority of gun violence) that might be conducive to violent behavior?
If so, that might be the place to begin the crusade.
If not, you aren't looking.

[george]

So now I ask you the same question, give us some SERIOUS, REALISTIC, and non-rights infringing proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

I Can, I Can;
Enforce the over 22,000 laws on the books NOW, Also require the full term of the penalty to be served and maybe double it if a firearm is involved!!!
No New Laws Until We Try To Enforce What We Now Have.

[EastSideRich]

2: No Country outside the US has the same rate of firearm ownership, and what you get from some of these countries is their "fact" reporting. I'll give you a example that Britain is still known to try in the medical world as fact "management". Some point out our infant death rates are higher than Britain's, even though our medical care for infant/preemie's is far better than anything they have. Problem is, they don't report a infant born as a preemie, that then dies because of being to premature, as a infant death. We do, any infant born, even at term so early the infant is nonviable, that then perishes is recorded in the U.S. as a infant death.

.

Also worth noting more than half of the"gun deaths" used to make these gun control arguments are suicides.
Another example of using "facts" to make an argument, but not really telling the whole story.

Sent from my phone

[tazdevil]

So now I ask you the same question, give us some SERIOUS, REALISTIC, and non-rights infringing proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

I Can, I Can;
Enforce the over 22,000 laws on the books NOW, Also require the full term of the penalty to be served and maybe double it if a firearm is involved!!!
No New Laws Until We Try To Enforce What We Now Have.

I DIDN"T ASK YOU!! TEN PUSHUPS NOW!



I asked the one post-poster, who with their first post, posts in one of the most argumentative section of this board, without even the slightest introduction post or any other opening post saying "Hi I'm so and so, with so so experience and etc." in the introduce yourself section of the board. If the person had really searched MNGunTalk, they would know very well we don't tend to like this, it seems "fishy", or maybe something the other crowd might do to sound like "one of us" (a.k.a. Heather).

The again, I could be wrong. Not like that's never happened before either.

[xd ED]

2: No Country outside the US has the same rate of firearm ownership, and what you get from some of these countries is their "fact" reporting. I'll give you a example that Britain is still known to try in the medical world as fact "management". Some point out our infant death rates are higher than Britain's, even though our medical care for infant/preemie's is far better than anything they have. Problem is, they don't report a infant born as a preemie, that then dies because of being to premature, as a infant death. We do, any infant born, even at term so early the infant is nonviable, that then perishes is recorded in the U.S. as a infant death.

.

Also worth noting more than half of the"gun deaths" used to make these gun control arguments are suicides.
Another example of using "facts" to make an argument, but not really telling the whole story.

Sent from my phone

Your example of suicide is worth remembering in the " a gun in the house is likely to kill someone in that family argument" which focuses on the negligent shootings, typically children, when far and away, it is suicide, and justifiable defense of domestic violence that drive the numbers.

[xd ED]

So now I ask you the same question, give us some SERIOUS, REALISTIC, and non-rights infringing proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

I Can, I Can;
Enforce the over 22,000 laws on the books NOW, Also require the full term of the penalty to be served and maybe double it if a firearm is involved!!!
No New Laws Until We Try To Enforce What We Now Have.

I DIDN"T ASK YOU!! TEN PUSHUPS NOW!



I asked the one post-poster, who with their first post, posts in one of the most argumentative section of this board, without even the slightest introduction post or any other opening post saying "Hi I'm so and so, with so so experience and etc." in the introduce yourself section of the board. If the person had really searched MNGunTalk, they would know very well we don't tend to like this, it seems "fishy", or maybe something the other crowd might do to sound like "one of us" (a.k.a. Heather).

The again, I could be wrong. Not like that's never happened before either.

You might be wrong.( It happens to he best of us sometimes) But I'm betting you're not.

[JJ]

I invite you to post or point me to SERIOUS, REALISTIC, proposals for reducing deaths and injuries from firearms in the U.S.

Enforce the laws already currently on the books.

This includes BATFE not letting guns get into the hands of criminals (see Fast&Furious).

/end thread

[george]

Your example of suicide is worth remembering in the " a gun in the house is likely to kill someone in that family argument" which focuses on the negligent shootings, typically children, when far and away, it is suicide, and justifiable defense of domestic violence that drive the numbers.

Not to get off track but I ordered 10 packs of these for people who can't afford a safe but shouldn't be denied there right to have a firearm.
Check out the video and PM your thoughts if you will, I've not received them yet.
[youtube=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBje1MnHL1M[/youtube]
http://safetybullet.com/home.html

[Tronster]

1) Any death by firearm is tragic, but who is dying by guns? Self perpetuated gang on gang crime over drug territory. A home invader shot by the owner, or vise versa. A potential rapist shot by the intended victim. A man shot simply for his wallet. And, tragically through rarely in comparison to other gun crimes, a group of innocents by a deranged disturbed individual.

2) Firearm deaths per capita vs murders per capita is a more accurate way to compare countries. Many countries have higher gun deaths per capita even with severe or total gun bans and lower gun ownership per capita. Brazil and Mexico for examples. US is 88/100 ownership with 3.6/100K deaths. Brazil is 8/100 with 18.1/100K deaths. Mexico is 15/100 ownership with 10/100K deaths. And total murders by stabbing or beating are often higher in other countries.

3) We DO want to reduce firearm deaths. But when a bulk of those deaths are caused by gang shootings or criminal attacks, going after the legal gun owners is going to do little more than make it easier for the gangs and criminals to exploit us.

Nowadays the media makes a blitz circus about any mass shooting, and any lonely disturbed individual watching in his basement plots to do one better for HIS big showdown. Quit giving these idiots their 2 weeks of fame.
Drastic cuts to funding and access to mental health care and the reluctance of parents to consider their child disturbed and seeking help for them has let alot of these people slip through the cracks and spiral into despair. And desperation. And out-lashing.
A poor economy and poor job outlooks have made individuals feel like there is no hope for a future or barely hanging on financially. The increased stress of an overworked employee that feels betrayed by a corrupt banking system and an over stepping government has a moment of clouded judgement and snaps.

Solutions? Stop the media frenzies. Fund the mental health care system. Encourage parents to get treatment for their child sooner than later. Stop an over reaching government from dictating what you do in your bedroom. Fix a financial system that rewards scams and speculations and encourages people to suck on the almighty government teat and penalizes hard work.

[Heffay]

And people call *me* a troll...