SPLIT ** General conversation about how ranges should be run

[Paul]

I wouldn't worry about your comments being taken out of context... After all, you've quit posting and defending yourself in this thread a couple times now.

[XDM45]

I wouldn't worry about your comments being taken out of context... After all, you've quit posting and defending yourself in this thread a couple times now.

Clearly they were taken out of context. I expect that from Heffay, but not from some others.

[tman]

You are just wrong No big deal. Its just that I am reeling from what you are saying, based on the audacity of your position and how oblivious you seem to be about it.

This just about sums it up for me.

XDM45, I'm pretty sure you will keep defending your initial position. I know that when I start to realize I'm wrong, I NEVER admit it right away. I think it's kind of like going through all the stages of grief until I get to acceptance.

Please consider that your initial opinion about the use of rifles as close combat rifles may be wrong, and at the least, merits further investigation. The minimum effective range of my rifle is measured in inches. The maximum range is in the hundreds of yards. A person doesn't need to be an "operator" to effectively defend themselves with one, either.

As a group, we just can't understand why you fight this position.

[Countryfried Frank]

XDM45,
Please don't take this as a personal attack but I would love to see you recant your position stated in the following quote.

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless.

That sounds pretty final, not a lot of wiggle room for "you do it your way, I do it mine." There have been a lot of statements opposing that view and what appears to be some backpeddaling from that statement. I appreciate your flexibility in the matter but I would love to see you get fully on board with the "rifles can be great multi-purpose firearms" crowd. As stated, I don't even have an AR (anymore), I have a Mini but it's as fun as a pistol at an indoor range. Would you be willing to meet me at an indoor range, preferably Bills North or Inrange, to heat up a Mini barrel? I would also like to open the invitation to an AR owner to give you a more rounded experience. Worst case you are out the gas to drive to the range. Best case you have some fun inside with something a little different and experience something new. Shoot me a PM and we'll make arrangements.

As a group, we just can't understand why you fight this position.

+1, we have failed in conveying our point of view to you through this format. I would like the opportunity to try a different one.

[tazdevil]

XDM45,
Please don't take this as a personal attack but I would love to see you recant your position stated in the following quote.

3) For the love of god, no rifles indoors.Shooting a rifle at less than 400 yards is pointless.

That sounds pretty final, not a lot of wiggle room for "you do it your way, I do it mine." There have been a lot of statements opposing that view and what appears to be some backpeddaling from that statement. I appreciate your flexibility in the matter but I would love to see you get fully on board with the "rifles can be great multi-purpose firearms" crowd. As stated, I don't even have an AR (anymore), I have a Mini but it's as fun as a pistol at an indoor range. Would you be willing to meet me at an indoor range, preferably Bills North or Inrange, to heat up a Mini barrel? I would also like to open the invitation to an AR owner to give you a more rounded experience. Worst case you are out the gas to drive to the range. Best case you have some fun inside with something a little different and experience something new. Shoot me a PM and we'll make arrangements.

As a group, we just can't understand why you fight this position.

+1, we have failed in conveying our point of view to you through this format. I would like the opportunity to try a different one.

I'll volunteer My AR for the experience. Here are my requirements though: Bill's North (can't get a lane at Inrange unless you sign up almost over a week in advance). Bring some ammo for use, and not crappy ammo either (it is my gun, and she'll be treated appropriately). Either 223 or 556 is fine. This Friday the 8th.

[tenmilmag]

Hello!!! Friday Feb 8TH is National peaceful gun assembly at all state capitals. You all need to be there! You can go shoot your guns off afterwards. Got it?

[heavy metal daze]

All I know is that's it's hilarious whenever a Mosin Nagant carbine is shot at Bill's north, it rumbles the whole store, and everyone looks to see what it is.

[t140]

Can I say anything without being judged? Good god.

I was referring to the level of training more so than the actual gun. a broomstick is going to be used in a more efficient manner for an ex/current special forces trained person than your average joe. That is my point - the training, not the weapon.

I swear that I need to start posting like a lawyer on here with a half page disclaimer.

I believe your opinion comes from inexperience. Maybe you've never tried or been formally taught how to use an ar15 for CQC.


I'll also offer up my rifle for you to try. I'm open on the date but in this climate, you'll have to supply your own copper jacketed ammo.

[cgrant26]

You'd be out of business.

Beat me to it

<snip>

@All,

No, I'm not clueless about rifles, but shooting one at a short distance is pointless in my opinion. They are meant for mid-to-long range shooting, not up in your face close like a pistol is.

Many disagree, cool. Some may agree, cool. Either way, to each our own opinion and our entitlement to it.

I spent 14 years in the Army. Want to know how many times I fired an M16 or M4 past 300 meters in training? I'll give you a hint; it's a number less than 1.

I respect your opinion as it's yours to have, but if firing a rifle at less than 400 yards really is pointless, then the Army has been doing it wrong for centuries.

Can I say anything without being judged? Good god.

I was referring to the level of training more so than the actual gun. a broomstick is going to be used in a more efficient manner for an ex/current special forces trained person than your average joe. That is my point - the training, not the weapon.

I swear that I need to start posting like a lawyer on here with a half page disclaimer.

If you air opinions out on the internet, people are going to judge them. If you don't want your art criticized, don't hang it up in a gallery.

[Hmac]

Can I say anything without being judged? Good god.

I was referring to the level of training more so than the actual gun. a broomstick is going to be used in a more efficient manner for an ex/current special forces trained person than your average joe. That is my point - the training, not the weapon.

I swear that I need to start posting like a lawyer on here with a half page disclaimer.

I believe your opinion comes from inexperience. Maybe you've never tried or been formally taught how to use an ar15 for CQC.

That's the bottom line. He doesn't understand defensive firearm use.

[mmcnx2]

8 pages later the troll has got the best of me and I'll weigh in:

I'd like to see a few changes at Bills
1. At robinsdale fix the pit so I don't loose all my brass and give me another foot on the table in the rear and another foot of hallway so guys don't nock my stuff of the shelf or step on my bag.
2. Keep the centerfire rifles and hand cannons in the seperated lanes form the pistol shooters. They are loud and are disruptive to a pistol shooter.
3. Have an actual RO on duty and observing the folks on the line. I see guys moving guns from the bench to the line on every visit, chamber closed, who knows if they are loaded or not. For what you pay for a lane they can staff an RO for each group of lanes.
4. Fix the target holders, there has to be a way to get a piece of cardboard onto the holders. the little clips they have can't hold a paper plate.

I know number 1 is not realistic but yea, at least these are constructive suggestions. Which is more than I can say for 7 of the 8 pages so far.

[codilly]

Wow this guy is a flat out joke! Hasn't he only been shooting for like a year and now he seems to be an expert on the topic. Wish I was that fast of a learner, I mean I only have 20 years of shooting under my belt and I fill inferior when he spews all this knowledge. I would LOVE to see this guy even hit a target at 400 yards with a rifle, I really wonder what he will use to fill the gap of range in between the pistol and the rifles minimum useful range of 400 yards.

[xd ED]

8 pages later the troll has got the best of me and I'll weigh in:

I'd like to see a few changes at Bills
1. At robinsdale fix the pit so I don't loose all my brass and give me another foot on the table in the rear and another foot of hallway so guys don't nock my stuff of the shelf or step on my bag.
2. Keep the centerfire rifles and hand cannons in the seperated lanes form the pistol shooters. They are loud and are disruptive to a pistol shooter.
3. Have an actual RO on duty and observing the folks on the line. I see guys moving guns from the bench to the line on every visit, chamber closed, who knows if they are loaded or not. For what you pay for a lane they can staff an RO for each group of lanes.
4. Fix the target holders, there has to be a way to get a piece of cardboard onto the holders. the little clips they have can't hold a paper plate.

I know number 1 is not realistic but yea, at least these are constructive suggestions. Which is more than I can say for 7 of the 8 pages so far.

If they'd act on your suggestions I might actually shoot at Robbinsdale again and Bill's in general.

[XDM45]

I respect your opinion as it's yours to have,
Thank you.

but if firing a rifle at less than 400 yards really is pointless, then the Army has been doing it wrong for centuries.
Yeah, I should have used a better and more accurate number, I was off-base on that one, but my other points remain. Others will disagree and I'm ok with that.

If you air opinions out on the internet, people are going to judge them. If you don't want your art criticized, don't hang it up in a gallery.
I hear ya. It doesn't bother me at all.

I really think that what I said awhile pretty much sums that up for me:

(From another poster in bold below. followed by my answer to them.)
Let's put it this way. If I were to say, "I don't think handguns should be allowed in an indoor range because it is easier to sweep somebody with a handgun than a rifle. So even when it is 5 degree's with a -40 degree windchill, I think still, handgun shooters should have to use an outdoor range because if you can shoot indoors, why can't you shoot outdoors?" Does that not sound completely irrational and borderline silly?

I would say that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'd shoot indoors if that's what I wanted to do, and if you didn't like it, you could deal with it or leave. That's the EXACT same thing I think about rifles indoors and the EXACT same thing I do when someone starts firing off rifles indoors. I can either shut up and deal with it or leave. I'[m not going to berate the person on a forum or in-person for their opinion, which they are most certainly entitled to, because doing THAT is completely irrational and borderline silly to me. It's their opinion and they can have it. I don't have to agree or disagree, and in America, I can even have my own opinion.

[IDPA Shooter]

Sent from my Xoom