Serious questions from gun owner re registration, other laws

[Ron Burgundy]

I call shenanigans. I think we're being trolled.

In the event I'm wrong, the answer has been presented above: enforce existing laws. Registration simply makes a list of those of us who follow the rules.

[BigBlue]

To talk about this push for gun control and gun elimination in terms of 'preventing death' or 'preventing violence' is itself a red herring. If anyone in society wanted to truly make an impact by reducing deaths in the US then looking at violence, murder or guns is simply the wrong place to focus.

From CDC Leading Causes of Death in US:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

Note that murder, let alone violence by firearm, is not even on the list. I think the number of deaths per year in the US from firearms is under 10,000. I'm not saying that's 'low enough' to not worry about, but if you truly care about needless deaths then START FOCUSING ON THE BIG CAUSES!

Now, we are all bright enough to know that this gun control push is not about reducing deaths. It is about changing lifestyles to conform to the nirvana view that a certain segment of society possesses. We have enough laws on the books that we don't need more. Take, for instance, the Sandy Hook shooting: The criminal committed: murder, theft of firearms, possession of firearms in a school, and a variety of other offenses. More laws would not have kept him from doing this. Even total elimination of all legal firearms in the US would not have prevented this. He would still have been able to obtain illegal firearms or simply rent a truck and drive it through the playground at recess. Or a dozen other ways of committing carnage.

As others have alluded to, and assuming that preventing death by violence is more important to work on that all of the other methods of premature death, society needs to work to find out why people would act this way in the first place. Figure out why violence is acceptable. Figure out why people do not value others' lives. Spend your time and energy here. In doing so you will achieve more success and you will not affect law-abiding citizens.

BB

[Jeff Bergquist]

And people call *me* a troll...

Your jealousy is showing.

In response to the OP, Americans are a murdering bunch. Our non-gun murder rate is still higher than much of the developed world's total rate. However it's not all that way, most of the problem is concentrated in the large cities among a fairly narrow demographic. (Men and boys under 35) I would like any proposed legislation to focus on that inconvenient truth, rather than to clamp down on everyone in the hopes of also impairing those actually prone to violence.

Given the choice, I would rather live free in a dangerous world, than in a world where someone takes away my rights with the promise to make me safer. And no matter what the law says, I refuse to abrogate my right to self defense to someone else, no matter what they promise me.

[photogpat]

He made one post, and hasn't been back since.

He's not interested in a conversation, just lecturing. "The Possum" come back for "meaningful" discussion. You can't just say, "I'm a gun owner, but..."

[bigd55433]

Stop the erosion of society BAM done....

This guy gets it;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYYgLzF ... ata_player

[Holland&Holland]

Um, his screen name is "the possum" just saying...

[jdege]

To talk about this push for gun control and gun elimination in terms of 'preventing death' or 'preventing violence' is itself a red herring. If anyone in society wanted to truly make an impact by reducing deaths in the US then looking at violence, murder or guns is simply the wrong place to focus.

From CDC Leading Causes of Death in US:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

How many of those are so-called "diseases of civilization"?

Heart disease, cancer, stroke, Alzheimers, Diabetes. 78% of them.

And how many of those are caused primarily by diet?

All of them.

And how many of them have gotten massively worse, since the government started providing us with health advice, 40 years ago?

All of them.

[antimatter]

To talk about this push for gun control and gun elimination in terms of 'preventing death' or 'preventing violence' is itself a red herring. If anyone in society wanted to truly make an impact by reducing deaths in the US then looking at violence, murder or guns is simply the wrong place to focus.

From CDC Leading Causes of Death in US:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death

Heart disease: 597,689
Cancer: 574,743
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
Diabetes: 69,071
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

How many of those are so-called "diseases of civilization"?

Heart disease, cancer, stroke, Alzheimers, Diabetes. 78% of them.

And how many of those are caused primarily by diet?

All of them.

And how many of them have gotten massively worse, since the government started providing us with health advice, 40 years ago?

All of them.

Your data is a bit wobbly. Heart disease and cancer cure rates have risen dramatically in the last 40 year, especially among younger people. Diabetes (type 2) does have some cause from diet, but type 1 is an auto-immune disease, and still needs lots of research to understand causes and cures. Alzheimer's isn't nearly as clear, and needs a lot more research to determine cause and treatments. I'd suggest reviewing the reloading manuals for these issues; i.e. peer reviewed journals like 'Cancer', 'Nature', etc.

[Cavscout]

This thread should be locked and the user banned. Only a single post, and it's making a thread. Obv a anti trolling here.

But I'll play.

Registration is OUT. They are trying to ban modern sporting rifles, and they will be confiscating those purcahsed after Feb 1, 2013. If they knew what people already had, the could demand we turn them in. If we had magazine ownership recorded, they would force it, even though they were legal before. So with them, it's only legal, until it isn't. We need the ability to ignore these types of illegal/wrong laws forcing us to give up personal property without reimbursement even.

I agree that AGENCIES (not doctors, unless treating for mental illness?) should report violations of LAW. They aren't there to claim who they trust with a firearm and don't. That was Hitler's tactic to disarm Jews and political enemies.

No AWB or mag limit. These items aren't just for hunting, sporting, and home/public defense. A right that I've fought for.

[The Possum]

Okay all, I apologize for my single post and then the long absence. First, you have to understand that I'm not a person who has the time to look at forums like this every day, much less post every day. But more importantly, I was buried under a bunch of responsibilities that I did not (and could not) anticipate, and the biggest hit me hard the day after I left that first post. Believe me, I've been doing little but working or being out of town.

I see there have been MANY responses. Now I need to do some research so that I can adequately consider and respond myself. I should be up front and say I won't respond to all of your points--because I can't. There's one of me and many more of you.

Thanks for keeping it civil. I can't really blame you for suspecting that I'm trolling (I'm not), actually against firearms (I'm not and never will be), or for pointing out that my username is "The Possum." Although I do think possums get a bad rap. After all, George Jones was called "The Possum," and if that's good enough for one of the greatest country singers then it's good enough for me.

I'll post again as soon as I have a sufficient response.

[NMRMN]

-

[White Horseradish]

I grew up with guns, own a number of them, and use them. I want you to know that, given what I will ask.

Why do you want us to know that? Unless we delve into specifics, your familiarity with firearms isn't really relevant.

I hope we can all agree on a couple of things:
1) The number of people killed and injured by firearms in our nation is truly tragic.

People killed an injured by anything is tragic, so yeah, I'd agree.

2) The rate of deaths and injuries by firearm in the U.S. is far higher than it is in most other nations, including some where owning firearms is legal and common.

There are no nations that are directly comparable to the US in this respect. Culture, demographics, populations size and density all make the comparison fairly useless. So, no.

3) We all want to reduce the deaths and injuries from firearms in our nations.

This always stumps me. Why do you want to single out deaths from firearms? Do you just not care about other deaths? Or are people killed by other means somehow less dead?

Since you like comparing countries, here's one for you: Russia. It's close to the US size-wise. It has strict gun control. It's a stable country, not in the middle of a civil war, or anything. And it has a murder rate about four times that of US, while the rate of murder with firearms is lower than in US.

So, here is a practical suggestion for you - lower murder rates. Less murder means less murder with guns. Towards this end an emphasis on community policing as opposed to the current militarization trend and ending the War on Drugs will go long way.

Firearm injuries are actually on the decline. They are also not that big of a problem. Accidental falls kill far more people than accidental shootings. Don't take my word for it, check the CDC.

In general, there are less sweeping improvements we should make first. For instance, making NICS work 100%. That means getting the information there from the states.

[301spartan]

I agree with George have the freedom taken gun grabbers review the 20000 +gun laws already on the books.i think we all know this safety talk is all b.s.they want to take all the gun away.i wish the pussies would just tell the truth.

[Hmac]

I have searched MNGunTalk for serious proposals for bringing about #3. And I don't find them. Instead, I find thousands of posts arguing AGAINST proposals by others. Now, my not find them may be a failure on my part. But I did try.

That's because it's not a solvable problem. All you can do is make gun violence illegal and then enforce those laws.

You have to understand, the people that come to this gun forum are law abiding citizens who take firearm safety seriously. For the most part, their only experience with "gun violence" is what they see on the news, so it's kind of an abstract issue. The solutions to gun violence affect only those law-abiding citizens. Very few people here see even the slightest rationale for blanket gun laws that curtail the rights of the vast majority in order to try to control the behavior of a few sociopaths.

How has a gun-free society worked for the UK? How about Australia?



They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

[connsolo]

Obvious troll.