Another One Bites the Dust

[20mm]

You have some insights as to what happened?

The only thing that seems to have been established at this point is the shop couldn't match lawyer bills with .gov.
At worst procedural issues that don't sound anything like criminal activities.

Perhaps we should apply your standards to the atf/ justice dept/ white house....

Plenty of businesses have been shut down for non-criminal activities. There are plenty of FFL's in Minnesota and on this forum that haven't been shut down. Perhaps you would like to call the ATF and inquire how many FFL's have been granted in Minnesota in the last year, and the number that they've had to revoke?

How's that for insight?

[St. Olaf]

Perhaps you would like to call the ATF and inquire how many FFL's have been granted in Minnesota in the last year, and the number that they've had to revoke?

How's that for insight?

We are not mind-readers here.

Can you just say what you mean?

[xd ED]

You have some insights as to what happened?

The only thing that seems to have been established at this point is the shop couldn't match lawyer bills with .gov.
At worst procedural issues that don't sound anything like criminal activities.

Perhaps we should apply your standards to the atf/ justice dept/ white house....

Plenty of businesses have been shut down for non-criminal activities. There are plenty of FFL's in Minnesota and on this forum that haven't been shut down. Perhaps you would like to call the ATF and inquire how many FFL's have been granted in Minnesota in the last year, and the number that they've had to revoke?

How's that for insight?

What the aft, or any other FFL in MN did, or didn't do offers no insight to the shop in question.
I assumed you had some specifics about this case.
As is said about assumptions.....

[870TC]

I never went to Hart's, did meet him at shows and was always treated fairly and with respect.

If you are curious about the topics discussed in previous posts (and mine) I encourage you to talk to your local FFL holders and ask about the last few inspections.
From what I have heard atf has recently started making a big deal out of small "paper violations" customers or the dealer make on paper work.
Examples I was told: Dealer wrote "Mosin Nagant 91-30" down for the make of 10 guns he bought from a wholesaler = 10 violations as know place on the gun does it say Mosin Nagant .
Customer abbreviates anything on the 4473-like: the city, state, county , ave., st., pkwy, blvd, dr., ct., ln., used "Jim" instead of James = all are violations.
Dealer wrote down 30-06 for caliber, gun was stamped 30-06 Govt. = violation.
Dealer wrote down 30-40 Krag for caliber, gun was stamped 30 army = violation.
Dealer wrote down. 44 mag for caliber, gun was stamped .44spl/.44mag = violation.

Combined you get a long list of violations, in reality nothing really bad happened. I suspect this is what happened at Hart Brothers.

[20mm]

I never went to Hart's, did meet him at shows and was always treated fairly and with respect.

If you are curious about the topics discussed in previous posts (and mine) I encourage you to talk to your local FFL holders and ask about the last few inspections.
From what I have heard atf has recently started making a big deal out of small "paper violations" customers or the dealer make on paper work.
Examples I was told: Dealer wrote "Mosin Nagant 91-30" down for the make of 10 guns he bought from a wholesaler = 10 violations as know place on the gun does it say Mosin Nagant .
Customer abbreviates anything on the 4473-like: the city, state, county , ave., st., pkwy, blvd, dr., ct., ln., used "Jim" instead of James = all are violations.
Dealer wrote down 30-06 for caliber, gun was stamped 30-06 Govt. = violation.
Dealer wrote down 30-40 Krag for caliber, gun was stamped 30 army = violation.
Dealer wrote down. 44 mag for caliber, gun was stamped .44spl/.44mag = violation.

Combined you get a long list of violations, in reality nothing really bad happened. I suspect this is what happened at Hart Brothers.

Thanks for sharing that. Did the guy behind the counter you got that info from also tell you about MK ultra mind control?

What the aft, or any other FFL in MN did, or didn't do offers no insight to the shop in question.
I assumed you had some specifics about this case.
As is said about assumptions.....

Yes I specifically know the business in question REFUSES to share details about the case, yet they claim to be innocent. Call the folks below and ask them how many revocation judgements for FFL's have occurred in the past year in Minnesota.

St. Paul Field Division
30 East Seventh Street, Room 1900
St. Paul, MN 55101
(651) 726-0200

[grousemaster]

Good riddance to them. Nobody needs an FFL dealer who can't follow the law or keep proper records like they're supposed to.

troll

[20mm]

Good riddance to them. Nobody needs an FFL dealer who can't follow the law or keep proper records like they're supposed to.

troll

Hey it's one of the 1630+ FFL dealers in Minnesota calling me a troll, yet adding nothing more to the discussion.

[grousemaster]

Good riddance to them. Nobody needs an FFL dealer who can't follow the law or keep proper records like they're supposed to.

troll

Hey it's one of the 1630+ FFL dealers in Minnesota calling me a troll, yet adding nothing more to the discussion.

Just calling you out as a troll, as you've demonstrated in many threads. If you think we have too many FFL's write to the ATF.

[LarryP]

Hi Sara!!

Good riddance to them. Nobody needs an FFL dealer who can't follow the law or keep proper records like they're supposed to.

[20mm]

Just calling you out as a troll, as you've demonstrated in many threads. If you think we have too many FFL's write to the ATF.

Thanks for calling me out on something I'm clearly not. Maybe you should write Hart Brothers and offer your FFL services at a nominal fee so they can stay in business!
Do you think the ATF is shutting down FFL's in Minnesota without justification or warnings? What do you think the ATF should do when an FFL doesn't follow the proper laws and regulations?

Hi Sara!!

Good riddance to them. Nobody needs an FFL dealer who can't follow the law or keep proper records like they're supposed to.

My name isn't Sara, and I'm not named Sue either.

[BigBlue]

Examples I was told: Dealer wrote "Mosin Nagant 91-30" down for the make of 10 guns he bought from a wholesaler = 10 violations as know place on the gun does it say Mosin Nagant .
Customer abbreviates anything on the 4473-like: the city, state, county , ave., st., pkwy, blvd, dr., ct., ln., used "Jim" instead of James = all are violations.
Dealer wrote down 30-06 for caliber, gun was stamped 30-06 Govt. = violation.
Dealer wrote down 30-40 Krag for caliber, gun was stamped 30 army = violation.
Dealer wrote down. 44 mag for caliber, gun was stamped .44spl/.44mag = violation. .

OK, the abbreviations I can see as identifiable issues, because you can pull out the filed 4473 and plainly see them. I think it is stupid to be that nitpicky, but it is what it is.

But for the wrong caliber and wrong description thing, I fail to see how those are things that could be audited. The gun is gone by the time someone would audit the situation. Unless they took the serial numbers from the 4473s and contacted the manufacturer to find out the specifics about the firearm how would they know if a gun is marked ".44spl/.44mag" and not ".44mag"??

The 'Jim instead of James' thing is also suspect, because they couldn't audit that very easily either. How do they know what the driver's license says after the fact? Some type of name/address public records search?

BB

[Heffay]

My name isn't Sara, and I'm not named Sue either.

Surely you jest.

[grousemaster]

I can only imagine these folks have been warned, but knowing nothing about it I would hesitate to offer any type of judgement or remarks like yours. These folks may have just lost their lifeline to pay the bills that keeps food on the table and a roof over their families heads. Try to show a little empathy, jesus.

To answer your questions, the ATF should issue written warning and sensible fines for repeat offenses. If the behavior is criminal that's another story.

[xd ED]

What grousemaster said.

[grousemaster]

What grousemaster said.

I have no doubt there are small paperwork errors on some of the hundreds of 4473's I have filed away. Although I do double check everything, I'm sure I'll get some corrections and red marks come inspection time. I'd imagine it is a very rare occurrence when a dealer has everything done just perfect come inspection time. I've also found the ATF (in my dealings with them) to be helpful and respectful. I can imagine if I willfully broke the law that would change pretty quick.

I imagine if they shut down too many of us they would need to cut back on the number of agents they employ. I doubt their union wants that either