Private Sale

[brad3579]

On the flip side, as a buyer I like to know who I'm purchasing a gun from and have some form of positive ID involved in a deal.

I believe in the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" policy... if a buyer isn't willing to ID themselves I consider it a red flag (is it stolen, for example.. or was the gun used in a crime and they want to be rid of it, etc..)... I don't have a problem sharing my DL/permit info on either side of a transaction and expect the same in return which is outlined in my conditions of a trade if a firearm is involved. I won't sell without seeing a DL/P2P-C as it is a reasonable assurance for me (on moral and practical-legal grounds) that the buyer is in fact eligible to own a firearm. This is my policy/best practice - to each their own unless you want to make a trade, in which case it's my way or the highway.

Your personal information is pretty much available to any third grader with an internet connection... if you are worried about identity theft sign up for a protection service (seriously, LifeLock is cheap insurance). It's likely that using a credit card to buy anything online or file your taxes is a greater risk for identity theft than sharing your DL or permit info with a private party gun sale.

I agree. Showing someone my DL/ PTC is a bit like showing someone my VISA card. But I wouldn't give a photo copy of either to a stranger.

Just like cashiers have done with credit card numbers, anyone can remember a little info for a few minutes if they want and then write it down.
All anyone would need to remember is name and birthdate the rest could be found in less than a minute online.
To really mess with your personal stuff one would need your social security number.

[JohnGageMN]

About $20k later you might wish you got a little more info

Based on exactly what specific history of this happening to someone? Please point out to us the court case where someone in Minnesota had to lawyer up and drop stacks of high society to prove they sold a gun via private party.

Sometimes paranoia is just paranoia when they're not out to get you. Asking to see a PTC is actually above and beyond what the law requires. It's a standard many on these kind of boards have because most of us are permit holders and know that another permit holder is the "safest" kind of person you can sell to. Short of acquiescing to Heather Marten's demands for defacto universal gun registration what more exactly do you think an honest person ought to do for due diligence? I'll tell you right now that if you wanted to take photocopies of my PTC and DL in order to sell me something you'd be looking for a new buyer.

I believe the point YuppieJr was making is that as a buyer you should be doing the same due diligence on the seller, asking to see ID and a PTC to make sure you're covered your bases as far as a reasonable person should do as well. I've only purchased one gun via private party and we both showed our PTCs to each other and filled out a very basic bill of sale. We exchanged goods for funds and went on our way. Anything beyond that and we might as well let them pass the registration-masquerading-as-background-checks law. Don't think you'll find many takers on that prospect.

[bpacman]

Just like cashiers have done with credit card numbers, anyone can remember a little info for a few minutes if they want and then write it down.
All anyone would need to remember is name and birthdate the rest could be found in less than a minute online.
To really mess with your personal stuff one would need your social security number.

I am confused here Brad. In one post you are gesticulating that a person is at risk for $20K in what I am assuming is legal fees if they don't get more information on the buyer/seller, but in this post you are saying that in just a few minute they can take information to really mess with you.

Is this a case of Rectal Oralfication or are you just having fun posting up advice this evening?

Bp

[JohnGageMN]

Just like cashiers have done with credit card numbers, anyone can remember a little info for a few minutes if they want and then write it down.
All anyone would need to remember is name and birthdate the rest could be found in less than a minute online.
To really mess with your personal stuff one would need your social security number.

Not really. I've met some very bright young people who could eff up your whole world without your SSN. Getting your DL number combined with your address and DOB would suffice.

As for the rest, There is always some risk in any transaction you make. As you pointed out with a dishonest cashier that could just as easily be a problem at a retail store. The questions here are:
1. What is legally required?
and
2. What might be realistic and prudent?

The first is completely objective in nature, the law is what the law is. The second is subjective, but the generally accepted practice around here is showing a PTC. This is neither brain science nor rocket surgery, it's an exchange of goods for money and we want to be reasonably self-assured we're not supplying arms to al Queda or the local crack dealer. 'Nuff said.

[xd ED]

On the flip side, as a buyer I like to know who I'm purchasing a gun from and have some form of positive ID involved in a deal.

I believe in the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" policy... if a buyer isn't willing to ID themselves I consider it a red flag (is it stolen, for example.. or was the gun used in a crime and they want to be rid of it, etc..)... I don't have a problem sharing my DL/permit info on either side of a transaction and expect the same in return which is outlined in my conditions of a trade if a firearm is involved. I won't sell without seeing a DL/P2P-C as it is a reasonable assurance for me (on moral and practical-legal grounds) that the buyer is in fact eligible to own a firearm. This is my policy/best practice - to each their own unless you want to make a trade, in which case it's my way or the highway.

Your personal information is pretty much available to any third grader with an internet connection... if you are worried about identity theft sign up for a protection service (seriously, LifeLock is cheap insurance). It's likely that using a credit card to buy anything online or file your taxes is a greater risk for identity theft than sharing your DL or permit info with a private party gun sale.

I agree. Showing someone my DL/ PTC is a bit like showing someone my VISA card. But I wouldn't give a photo copy of either to a stranger.

Just like cashiers have done with credit card numbers, anyone can remember a little info for a few minutes if they want and then write it down.
All anyone would need to remember is name and birthdate the rest could be found in less than a minute online.
To really mess with your personal stuff one would need your social security number.

Showing someone my 16 digit CC at arm's length is not the same as handing it to them so they can run to the back room and either swipe a reader or run it through an old fashion imprinter. And from what I've been told it's the birthday info that opens the locks.

[brad3579]

I'll tell you right now that if you wanted to take photocopies of my PTC and DL in order to sell me something you'd be looking for a new buyer.
I've only purchased one gun via private party and we both showed our PTCs to each other and filled out a very basic bill of sale.

That is fine no one would make you purchase one from me.
I have bought and sold many and have never had a problem so I will continue do it the same way.

I am confused here Brad. In one post you are gesticulating that a person is at risk for $20K in what I am assuming is legal fees if they don't get more information on the buyer/seller, but in this post you are saying that in just a few minute they can take information to really mess with you.
Is this a case of Rectal Oralfication or are you just having fun posting up advice this evening?
Bp

I threw a number out there whatever. if you don't think it could end up costing some money fighting a overzealous county attorney that is your choice.
Now are we going to start the stupid internet hard ass name calling crap? (grow up)

Not really. I've met some very bright young people who could eff up your whole world without your SSN. Getting your DL number combined with your address and DOB would suffice.

So now you are agreeing with me that making a copy or looking at it and remembering your name and DOB are the same?

[JohnGageMN]

I'll tell you right now that if you wanted to take photocopies of my PTC and DL in order to sell me something you'd be looking for a new buyer.
I've only purchased one gun via private party and we both showed our PTCs to each other and filled out a very basic bill of sale.

That is fine no one would make you purchase one from me.
I have bought and sold many and have never had a problem so I will continue do it the same way.

Fair enough, I'll make sure I bypass any ads I see you post.

Not really. I've met some very bright young people who could eff up your whole world without your SSN. Getting your DL number combined with your address and DOB would suffice.

So now you are agreeing with me that making a copy or looking at it and remembering your name and DOB are the same?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I would submit that far fewer people have an eidetic memory good enough to remember all of that from a quick glance than possess the skills to cause you harm if they have a hard copy of that data to refer to. Are you really saying that you have less faith in someone from this board allowing you to take a quick look at their PTC than the innumerable complete strangers you hand your credit card to on a daily basis?

[brad3579]

Fair enough, I'll make sure I bypass any ads I see you post.

No hard feelings. lol

No, I'm not saying that at all. I would submit that far fewer people have an eidetic memory good enough to remember all of that from a quick glance than possess the skills to cause you harm if they have a hard copy of that data to refer to. Are you really saying that you have less faith in someone from this board allowing you to take a quick look at their PTC let them make a copy of my DL than the innumerable complete strangers you hand your credit card to on a daily basis?

Fixed, looks as though I trust them more.

All I was saying is that they only have to remember your name and DOB, lots of people can handle that one.

[Thunder71]

Can we get one of those high paid mods to stop this **** from happening all the **** time?

This is far more annoying than a missing location in a for sale thread.

[MXGreg]

Can we get one of those high paid mods to stop this **** from happening all the **** time?

This is far more annoying than a missing location in a for sale thread.

[ttousi]

Can we get one of those high paid mods to stop this **** from happening all the **** time?

This is far more annoying than a missing location in a for sale thread.

Split

PS
Sorry I was busy cashing my moderator check and counting the cash so I didn't get to it right away

[MNGunner]

No way would I sell a gun that I have purchased on a federal form to anyone without some kind of a record I can keep to prove that I have sold it. So, at absolute minimum a signed bill of sale with a look at DL to verify identity.

Just one prosecutor trying to make a name for himself (or even worse, herself) for being "tough on gun-crime" could in a worst case scenario end up costing a fortune in time and money, with time being far more valuable of the two.

[MNGunner]

Oops, double tap.

[Ron Burgundy]

No way would I sell a gun that I have purchased on a federal form to anyone without some kind of a record I can keep to prove that I have sold it. So, at absolute minimum a signed bill of sale with a look at DL to verify identity.

Just one prosecutor trying to make a name for himself (or even worse, herself) for being "tough on gun-crime" could in a worst case scenario end up costing a fortune in time and money, with time being far more valuable of the two.

Who hurt you? Did your mother not hold you enough as a child?

[MXGreg]

Who hurt you? Did your mother not hold you enough as a child?

Not sure what that has to do with selling a gun privately, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting to cover your butt and give yourself a little peice of mind. I've sold cars to people, who sold it to someone else, who then sold it again, and then had the sheriff call me up asking if I'd like to pay the impound fees. I'm not saying I would do the same as MNGunner if I sold a firearm. Not sure what I'd feel comfortable with, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.