Lead Level in Blood

[MNGunner]

I am Larry Yatch founder and CEO of Sealed Mindset.

Our HVAC system was custom designed from the ground up to meet and exceed any current standards.

We have a recirculating system in which all range air is passed through three filters (only one is required).

We have a 2" pre-filter, a 6" mid-filter, and a medical grade HEPA filter. Once the air goes through this filter bank it is cleaner than what you breath on the street.

The air is then blown through a plenum wall, rather than vents with create dead air spaces, which ensures stable air movement throughout the entire range.

We move 14400 cfm (cubic feet per minute). Which means that we completely change the entire air volume of our range every 1.06 minutes.

Our system is completely computer controlled with over 10 separate aspects that are continuously monitored.

This web-based system is one of a kind for shooting ranges, and allows me to monitor and control it from anywhere on my phone.

You will not find a cleaner indoor range.

Feel free to stop by anytime and check it out for yourself.

You don't completely change the entire voulume of air every 1.06 minutes. You recirculate and filter the air in the room at a given rate. If you literally changed it, your heating and cooling cost would be quite high whenever the ambient (outside) air is of different temprearture than what you want to maintain inside.

I assume that one of the 10 aspects you monitor is not actual level of airborne lead, right? Do you know if that is sometimes actually measured? If yes, how often?
(Not attempting to claim that your ventilation system isn't good or great, just curious if you have a way to actually confirm what the lead levels are.)

[xd ED]

I had a guy in my high school small engines class who volunteered to demonstrate the resistence of the human body when the teacher was demonstrating how a multi meter worked. His conductivity was 3 or 4 times what is should have been. He was sent to the Nurse and subsequently tested for heavy metals. He was loaded with lead, mercury etc. His family was not well off and they ate a ton of fish they caught themselves year round (4-5 meals a week) and they happened to live close to and fished almost daily some flooded iron ore pits and small lakes that get run off from the mining operations on the Range. The fish consumption was what they pinpointed, along with their well water which needed more frequent filter changes than they could afford.

Glad you got it under control. Wonder if heavy metal testing is a part of a standard physical work up.

Reads like an urban legend if I have ever heard one, when it comes to the multimeter part. If it was that easy, one would think that doctors would be all over such an easy diagnostic technique.

^^^ That's pretty much my thought as well. Assuming the person was alive, functional, coherent.

[xd ED]

I am Larry Yatch founder and CEO of Sealed Mindset.

Our HVAC system was custom designed from the ground up to meet and exceed any current standards.

We have a recirculating system in which all range air is passed through three filters (only one is required).

We have a 2" pre-filter, a 6" mid-filter, and a medical grade HEPA filter. Once the air goes through this filter bank it is cleaner than what you breath on the street.

The air is then blown through a plenum wall, rather than vents with create dead air spaces, which ensures stable air movement throughout the entire range.

We move 14400 cfm (cubic feet per minute). Which means that we completely change the entire air volume of our range every 1.06 minutes.

Our system is completely computer controlled with over 10 separate aspects that are continuously monitored.

This web-based system is one of a kind for shooting ranges, and allows me to monitor and control it from anywhere on my phone.

You will not find a cleaner indoor range.

Feel free to stop by anytime and check it out for yourself.

You don't completely change the entire voulume of air every 1.06 minutes. You recirculate and filter the air in the room at a given rate. If you literally changed it, your heating and cooling cost would be quite high whenever the ambient (outside) air is of different temprearture than what you want to maintain inside.

I assume that one of the 10 aspects you monitor is not actual level of airborne lead, right? Do you know if that is sometimes actually measured? If yes, how often?
(Not attempting to claim that your ventilation system isn't good or great, just curious if you have a way to actually confirm what the lead levels are.)

I'm no expert in gun range air systems, but mechanical filtration will not remove carbon monoxide, or vapors from lead and mercury- all byproducts of gunfire.
Whether these are present at hazardous levels will depend on the intensity of the ranges use, and fresh air exchanges.
Recirculating the indoor air through the filters will not remove them.

[mnarguy556]

Next time you're at Bill's North, check the big grey breaker behind the range counter on the left wall, in front of the rental rifles. The big red light, which lettering above reads "Filter Full," is almost always on, weeks in a row. That range is specifically one of the haziest indoor ranges I've ever been to. The haze from everything in there makes it look like woodstock '68, if it were attended by people of our mindset, not hippies.

[XDM45]

Next time you're at Bill's North, check the big grey breaker behind the range counter on the left wall, in front of the rental rifles. The big red light, which lettering above reads "Filter Full," is almost always on, weeks in a row. That range is specifically one of the haziest indoor ranges I've ever been to. The haze from everything in there makes it look like woodstock '68, if it were attended by people of our mindset, not hippies.

Good thing I'm already boycotting their range for having fully automatic firearms on the bench behind the firing line.

[yukonjasper]

I had a guy in my high school small engines class who volunteered to demonstrate the resistence of the human body when the teacher was demonstrating how a multi meter worked. His conductivity was 3 or 4 times what is should have been. He was sent to the Nurse and subsequently tested for heavy metals. He was loaded with lead, mercury etc. His family was not well off and they ate a ton of fish they caught themselves year round (4-5 meals a week) and they happened to live close to and fished almost daily some flooded iron ore pits and small lakes that get run off from the mining operations on the Range. The fish consumption was what they pinpointed, along with their well water which needed more frequent filter changes than they could afford.

Glad you got it under control. Wonder if heavy metal testing is a part of a standard physical work up.

Reads like an urban legend if I have ever heard one, when it comes to the multimeter part. If it was that easy, one would think that doctors would be all over such an easy diagnostic technique.

^^^ That's pretty much my thought as well. Assuming the person was alive, functional, coherent.

Well, I'd give you the guys name so you could verify it, but not sure he is still alive - rumor was that Leroy committed suicide while serving in the military. Although I may have forgotten what the multiple was on the multimeter, suffice to say the shops teacher was alarmed at what he saw when he saw it and sent him immediately to the nurses office and he was not in school for several weeks. Granted, I did not see his medical charts, so I had to go with what Leroy told me when he returned to school. Not sure he would make sometheing like that up, but I guess its possible.


It is great to be able to access so many experts in so many different fields of study, this is a knowlege rich environment. I'm sure Mr. Yatch is pleased to have so many people interested in the actual air exchanger rate of his facility and wether there are actual lead level sensors available in ths systems to provide readings eery minute of the day. I believe him and even if he isn't an expert in HVAC technology, I think he would know what he paid to have installed. OR maybe you guys could claim its an urban legend. Sometimes the anal renentive nature of the inhabitands of this little island gets tiring once you get your initial laugh out of the way and realize that they are seriouse about the **** they are typing..

Although I've been the source of some of what I rail against, I'm beginning to understand what wome of the original cast of charecters has been saying about this forum becoming the place where fun went to die. LET IT GO PEOPLE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT. still a good source of basic information but the opinions get a little tiring.

[XDM45]

Although I've been the source of some of what I rail against, I'm beginning to understand what some of the original cast of characters has been saying about this forum becoming the place where fun went to die. LET IT GO PEOPLE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT. still a good source of basic information but the opinions get a little tiring.

A little story on urban legends......

A few years ago I heard a story about a guy who worked at 3M and for his retirement, was given the patent on a technology he created while working there (and thus 3M owned it until it was given to him.) It was a process that you could use to take a painting, make a negative of it with all of the brush marks, etc, then use that as a template to make a positive exact replica of it. Why? Well, imagine taking an original painting and making an exact replica of it, a sort of textured print of a painting, if you will. Well, this guy approached Terry Redland for 5 years until Terry decided to take some of his older originals works, duplicate them via this process, and then sell them as a test to see how they'd do in the marketplace....and they did very, very well, selling out rather quickly.

So one day I'm over at a friend's house telling him this story after saying the typical disclaimer about me being unable to verify it, so it's probably an urban legend, and he says, "Oh yeah, that's Les's dad you're talking about." to which I replied "You mean it's TRUE??!!" I was in shock. Les came over a few weeks later when I was there again and he told me all about it, except for the process and how it works because that's a trade secret they don't want to reveal.

So in short and to my point........sometimes those urban legends ARE true.

Now as for this place and people being so vested in being "right", yeah, true that.... but that's humans in general, not just here.

[xd ED]

^^^ That's pretty much my thought as well. Assuming the person was alive, functional, coherent.

Well, I'd give you the guys name so you could verify it, but not sure he is still alive - rumor was that Leroy committed suicide while serving in the military. Although I may have forgotten what the multiple was on the multimeter, suffice to say the shops teacher was alarmed at what he saw when he saw it and sent him immediately to the nurses office and he was not in school for several weeks. Granted, I did not see his medical charts, so I had to go with what Leroy told me when he returned to school. Not sure he would make sometheing like that up, but I guess its possible.


It is great to be able to access so many experts in so many different fields of study, this is a knowlege rich environment. I'm sure Mr. Yatch is pleased to have so many people interested in the actual air exchanger rate of his facility and wether there are actual lead level sensors available in ths systems to provide readings eery minute of the day. I believe him and even if he isn't an expert in HVAC technology, I think he would know what he paid to have installed. OR maybe you guys could claim its an urban legend. Sometimes the anal renentive nature of the inhabitands of this little island gets tiring once you get your initial laugh out of the way and realize that they are seriouse about the **** they are typing..

Although I've been the source of some of what I rail against, I'm beginning to understand what wome of the original cast of charecters has been saying about this forum becoming the place where fun went to die. LET IT GO PEOPLE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT. still a good source of basic information but the opinions get a little tiring.

If you recall, this tangental discussion began with the claim of an air exchange every 4 seconds.
When that figure was questioned as dubious, the range's owner corrected that to be a recirculation in approx 64 seconds. No rate of exchange stated.

No opinions there, merely some facts; that resulted in a 18x error correction.

As for myself, I don't believe I claimed anything but some common sense and a bit of simple math.
Personally, I've often been appreciative of the associated expertise that sometimes circulates through this board, although sometimes not.

As well as the range owner's concerns, I'm sure potential customers would be reassured to know it's a a safe and clean facility.

As to the blood concentration of heavy metals detection with a VOM/ galvanometer- aka: galvanic skin response testing

A: if it is in fact possible, I doubt any meter knocking about a shop class would be up to the task,
(as an aside, you'd get a great deviation from the amount of dust/ perspiration on the skin, and subcutaneous fat )
and
B: a quick Google search of galvanic skin response testing - nothing about testing for heavy metal blood toxicity jumps out in the first several pages of results.

[yukonjasper]

All I can say is that I was there and I saw it happen and although it was 35 or so years ago and the details aren't sharp, it did indeed happen. The shops teacher is still alive and is something of an Anti-hero in local politics up there, but I think he would remember the situation as well. I don't know anything about Galvanic Skin Response or how the multimeter would work in that situation, but holding one probe in each hand, arms outstretched, provided whatever reading that was alarming enough for that teacher to send the student directly the nurses office and the situation was serious enough to keep the guy out of class for some period of time. I was told later by Leroy that it was mercury and some other heavy metals he was loaded with that came from the fish they were eating from a local flooded mine pit. Anyway, that was the situation - Like Ripley - Believe it or Not.

I do agree that this is still a good source of information for most things and I do appreciate some of the advice I have recieved. Don't mean to be a rag, but I also don't like to be called out on things that I know to be true - details may be fuzzy and not necessarily 100% accurate, but certainly not worth, in my mind, someone getting excited about it.

[XDM45]

All I can say is that I was there and I saw it happen and although it was 35 or so years ago and the details aren't sharp, it did indeed happen. The shops teacher is still alive and is something of an Anti-hero in local politics up there, but I think he would remember the situation as well. I don't know anything about Galvanic Skin Response or how the multimeter would work in that situation, but holding one probe in each hand, arms outstretched, provided whatever reading that was alarming enough for that teacher to send the student directly the nurses office and the situation was serious enough to keep the guy out of class for some period of time. I was told later by Leroy that it was mercury and some other heavy metals he was loaded with that came from the fish they were eating from a local flooded mine pit. Anyway, that was the situation - Like Ripley - Believe it or Not.

I do agree that this is still a good source of information for most things and I do appreciate some of the advice I have recieved. Don't mean to be a rag, but I also don't like to be called out on things that I know to be true - details may be fuzzy and not necessarily 100% accurate, but certainly not worth, in my mind, someone getting excited about it.

Don't worry about it. I believe you. Maybe some here and some don't. Of course I've heard stories where someone who is a subject matter expert with degrees and certifications edits a Wikipedia page with great information, only to have some basement dweller edit it in an Internet pissing contest because their ego won't allow them otherwise.

/ignore the a-hats and life is easier.

[xd ED]

All I can say is that I was there and I saw it happen and although it was 35 or so years ago and the details aren't sharp, it did indeed happen. The shops teacher is still alive and is something of an Anti-hero in local politics up there, but I think he would remember the situation as well. I don't know anything about Galvanic Skin Response or how the multimeter would work in that situation, but holding one probe in each hand, arms outstretched, provided whatever reading that was alarming enough for that teacher to send the student directly the nurses office and the situation was serious enough to keep the guy out of class for some period of time. I was told later by Leroy that it was mercury and some other heavy metals he was loaded with that came from the fish they were eating from a local flooded mine pit. Anyway, that was the situation - Like Ripley - Believe it or Not.

I do agree that this is still a good source of information for most things and I do appreciate some of the advice I have recieved. Don't mean to be a rag, but I also don't like to be called out on things that I know to be true - details may be fuzzy and not necessarily 100% accurate, but certainly not worth, in my mind, someone getting excited about it.

I have no reason to dispute the event. You were there, I wasn't.
But the fact that the kid was suffering from heavy metal poisoning might be a coincidence.

[MNGunner]

It is great to be able to access so many experts in so many different fields of study, this is a knowlege rich environment. I'm sure Mr. Yatch is pleased to have so many people interested in the actual air exchanger rate of his facility and wether there are actual lead level sensors available in ths systems to provide readings eery minute of the day. I believe him and even if he isn't an expert in HVAC technology, I think he would know what he paid to have installed. OR maybe you guys could claim its an urban legend. Sometimes the anal renentive nature of the inhabitands of this little island gets tiring once you get your initial laugh out of the way and realize that they are seriouse about the **** they are typing..

I'm simply interested in knowing if airborne lead levels at indoor ranges are measured directly, and if yes, how often and by whom.
I would agree that he would know what the system does, and that's why I asked what it does.

Regarding the urban legend, the resistance a multimeter would read will vary just with perspiration/moisture of skin alone. Anyone posts any type of an article about resistance across the body being used to screen for lead/heavy metals poisoning anywhere in the world and I'll be happy.

(I don't really see why anyone would get upset if someone they have never met questions the science behind a story told on the internet. I can think of several stories that I know from personal 1st hand experience to be 100% true and I also know that NO-ONE who has never met me would ever believe them, and knowning that does not bother me one bit.)

[Maximus]

The old mistaken causality, that is one to watch out for. Especially when dealing with anti-gunners, vegans, PETA types and just liberals in general. Fallacious arguments are great tools to trick simpletons. The CDC purports a study on a man from North Dakota proves that eating game animals increases lead in the body. The argument they make points to one variable and one result and links the two. Their argument fails to prove causality or causation because they did not eliminate all other causes. The guy obviously shoots guns, he may or may not reload, he may or may not cast lead, he may or may not eat fish, he may or may not eat paint chips. It does seem logical to link the two based on the knowlege that bullets contain lead and the animal at one point had lead in it. But it is not a valid argument. It is irresponsible for a government authority like the CDC to make such a shoddy argument, but they are well known for pushing their agenda. Watch out for some new studies on gun violence from the CDC - your guy Barry Obama has told them to start collecting more data and put out the anti-gun vibe to scare all of the non-2A people of the dangers of our guns. Which are obvioulsy very, very, very, very dangerous and scary. Especially the black ones that look like the ones that are given to 18 year old kids who have never fired a gun in their life.

Luke

[MNGunner]

Although I've been the source of some of what I rail against, I'm beginning to understand what some of the original cast of characters has been saying about this forum becoming the place where fun went to die. LET IT GO PEOPLE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT. still a good source of basic information but the opinions get a little tiring.

A little story on urban legends......

A few years ago I heard a story about a guy who worked at 3M and for his retirement, was given the patent on a technology he created while working there (and thus 3M owned it until it was given to him.) It was a process that you could use to take a painting, make a negative of it with all of the brush marks, etc, then use that as a template to make a positive exact replica of it. Why? Well, imagine taking an original painting and making an exact replica of it, a sort of textured print of a painting, if you will. Well, this guy approached Terry Redland for 5 years until Terry decided to take some of his older originals works, duplicate them via this process, and then sell them as a test to see how they'd do in the marketplace....and they did very, very well, selling out rather quickly.

So one day I'm over at a friend's house telling him this story after saying the typical disclaimer about me being unable to verify it, so it's probably an urban legend, and he says, "Oh yeah, that's Les's dad you're talking about." to which I replied "You mean it's TRUE??!!" I was in shock. Les came over a few weeks later when I was there again and he told me all about it, except for the process and how it works because that's a trade secret they don't want to reveal.

So in short and to my point........sometimes those urban legends ARE true.

Now as for this place and people being so vested in being "right", yeah, true that.... but that's humans in general, not just here.

A couple of "spoilers":
1) Patents expire 17 years after they are issued (or 20 years from first filing date, but no reason to make this "complex")
2) Patents, by definition, are fully disclosed, so no such thing as a “trade secret” patent exists. The two are the opposites of each other.

[jshuberg]

I'm simply interested in knowing if airborne lead levels at indoor ranges are measured directly, and if yes, how often and by whom.
I would agree that he would know what the system does, and that's why I asked what it does.

I know that OSHA periodically tests employees of gun ranges, they wear a testing device with a tube on their shoulder that continually samples the air everywhere they go. My understanding is that they then test the filter the sampled air went through to determine how much lead was captured over an X hour period of time. While it's undoubtedly possible to test an air sample for lead in real-time, I'm sure it's crazy expensive to do so. The filters would have to be sent to a lab to do the testing in order for it to be cost effective. That's how i understand it anyways, please correct me if I'm mistaken.