Why not?

[David]

One possible bit of fallout that many might not see relates to what lurkers might think about the local shooting community as a whole. I know for a fact that there are many people who are new to shooting or are just "interested" who have been too afraid to post questions on here for fear of being jumped on. Sure, they can get their questions answered elsewhere, and probably will, but the chance that we might leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, and that might lead to someone not getting as involved in shooting, seems like a pretty sad thing. If you go to the steel shoots, you know that each time there are a few people who have never competed before. A community of easy-going, thoughtful people will inspire people to go that extra bit and get more into it.

On the other side of the spectrum, I know personally several people whose knowledge around here would be VERY welcome, yet they do not post because they don't want to risk getting filleted. They're on this forum regularly, but don't contribute because it's just not worth the bother of having to sign-in just to see if you need to defend yourself.

Really, if we all just think about this place as someone's house or club, everyone would understand how to act. We've all been to dinner parties and club events, right? Not since I left my 20s behind me have I ever seen a FTF event go like some of the threads around here.

[rucker]

I have suggested in the past that there be an area where there is a little more free flow of ideas and attitudes with less moderation. Why would this not have been a solution to the problem that has apparantly cost us at least two of our better contributors?

My main concern is that things would not be contained there. You have seen how people can't let things go and have to interject their snide references into completely unrelated topics. The second concern I have is that if there is simply less moderation then it becomes a sticky issue of where to draw the line. I don't think that the rules interfere with the free flow of ideas but I suppose they could impose on certain attitudes. I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that. Certain people (not you nyffman) seem to think that having a few basic rules is the equivalent of some kind of forum eugenics program but it's really not that big of a deal.

I personally have a great deal of respect for the two that I am aware of as leaving the forum. MNGunTalk is headed in a bad direction if it is willing to discard good people in favor of PC forms of communication. I do not direct this at rucker or anyone in particular. Just my thoughts on the subject. We need to figure out a better solution.

In regards to moderation what could have stopped that from happening? Less moderation or more moderation? Let's remember that approximately 90% of the moderation is in regards to fewer than 2% of the users. Lax moderation is what allowed them to continue doing the same things over and over for almost a year. Perhaps, with stricter moderation, they would have been dealt with a long time ago before the aggravation began to affect others. I don't want to lose anybody but it's simply impossible to please everybody.

I certainly don't claim to have the answers so I would like to hear any opinions on the matter.

[nyffman]

As far as the recent problems with a couple guys, I can not and am not trying to build any kind of case for either support of or detraction for their behavior. Either I am doing a poor job of communicating my idea or it's just a bad idea. Another forum that I am on has an area called the "minefield". You know before going there, that it is subject to a different degree of moderation and guys communicate, generally, more freely. There are rules, but not the same rules as the rest of the forum. Now, when you go to a party, you are likely to see a segregation develop as the party progresses. You could find a room where everyone sits up straight, they may be wearing ties, and if so, the ties are on nice and straight, properly tied and all that. In one room, the half windsor may be the only knot acceptable. Everyone is on their best behavior, saying please and thank you at the appropriate moments. And never is heard a discouraging word. And, might I add, the skys are not cloudy all day. Now, in another room, ties may be loosened or even taken off for more comfort. They might even have the top button open. This would never be considered appropriate in the first room. They might even have a beer and the skys might just be a little bit cloudy from cigarette smoke. There may be other rooms where an off color story might be heard. The point is, that there are different definitions of "appropriate behavior" depending on the company you keep. As there are differences among our backgrounds, why is assimilation so much more important than tolerance? But now, the "holier than thou" crowd has risen. We have rules here, by god. Ok, and they supposedly have been here since day one. But, only recently have they been enforced. Precedent had been made. As far as the "rucker's house, rucker's rules" answer, 100% correct. But, where have we seen this before? Hmm! How did that work out for you at the other place? I didn't have a real high opinion of it either. So, in the end, if anyone knows me, and I don't think too many here really do, they know that I'm pretty tolerant and flexible. Whatever is collectively decided, I'll make it work, after the necessary whining has been completed. But, rather than have a knee jerk reaction to all this, I hope you all think about the direction we are headed. Why are you here? Is your whiny little opinion more important than my whiny little opinion? If you believe this to be so, please submit in 1000 words or less. You will be graded on originality and grammar.

[rucker]

As far as the recent problems with a couple guys, I can not and am not trying to build any kind of case for either support of or detraction for their behavior. Either I am doing a poor job of communicating my idea or it's just a bad idea. Another forum that I am on has an area called the "minefield". You know before going there, that it is subject to a different degree of moderation and guys communicate, generally, more freely. There are rules, but not the same rules as the rest of the forum. Now, when you go to a party, you are likely to see a segregation develop as the party progresses. You could find a room where everyone sits up straight, they may be wearing ties, and if so, the ties are on nice and straight, properly tied and all that. In one room, the half windsor may be the only knot acceptable. Everyone is on their best behavior, saying please and thank you at the appropriate moments. And never is heard a discouraging word. And, might I add, the skys are not cloudy all day. Now, in another room, ties may be loosened or even taken off for more comfort. They might even have the top button open. This would never be considered appropriate in the first room. They might even have a beer and the skys might just be a little bit cloudy from cigarette smoke. There may be other rooms where an off color story might be heard. The point is, that there are different definitions of "appropriate behavior" depending on the company you keep. As there are differences among our backgrounds, why is assimilation so much more important than tolerance? But now, the "holier than thou" crowd has risen. We have rules here, by god. Ok, and they supposedly have been here since day one. But, only recently have they been enforced. Precedent had been made. As far as the "rucker's house, rucker's rules" answer, 100% correct. But, where have we seen this before? Hmm! How did that work out for you at the other place? I didn't have a real high opinion of it either. So, in the end, if anyone knows me, and I don't think too many here really do, they know that I'm pretty tolerant and flexible. Whatever is collectively decided, I'll make it work, after the necessary whining has been completed. But, rather than have a knee jerk reaction to all this, I hope you all think about the direction we are headed. Why are you here? Is your whiny little opinion more important than my whiny little opinion? If you believe this to be so, please submit in 1000 words or less. You will be graded on originality and grammar.

I understand what you are saying... I was just pointing out my concerns about implementation. I think the Off-Topic Discussion forum somewhat fits the bill. For example there is nothing wrong with freewheeling threads, good natured ribbing, and off color jokes there. It is also necessary to log in to view it so that it is not cached by search engines or viewable to the casual browser. Would clarifying rules in that forum help any? Another idea would be to just write a set of sample rules for the forum you envision and we can discuss it; certainly can't hurt to talk about it.

I also understand the point about the precedent that was set in the past. The consensus though seemed to be that it was a bad precedent that most people wanted to reverse. I have no problem taking the blame for messing that up from the beginning.... I suppose my failure to enforce the rules may have led some to have false assumptions about what kind of forum this is intended to be. The goal isn't assimilation.... it's just that when I hear of multiple people being afraid to post because of the "reputation" of the forum then I think there is a very real problem. Nobody has to agree with anybody else; it's the method of disagreement that is the issue that we are attempting to address.

On the statement "Rucker's house; Rucker's rules"... First of all; I have never personally said that which, I think, is an important distinction. I have always tried to listen to any advice I was given and I think that a lot of things here have been shaped by user input. I have absolutely no desire for this to be my personal playpen. I, instead, view it as my job to provide something that is beneficial to both the community and to the maximum amount of users. My ultimate goal is for the forum to eventually grow beyond the point where I am such a prominent figure. I don't think you have heard that before

[cmj685]

Just to put my two-cents worth in. Nyffman--I have no idea what you are talking about here. As I have watched (and worried about) the progress of the forum over the past year, what I have seen and heard both for myself and from others (and it has intensified over the past 4 or 5 months) is that by allowing two or three bad apples to tear the place up all the time, we were fast losing both our credibility and our community. People stopped posting, especially people who weren't willing to undergo the kind of scorn that was heaped on every thread unrelentingly. I myself grew less interested in posting here and went back over to the other forum to start using it again. And my fundamental feeling was that, in the end, Joel's method of moderation was necessary, and it was fast becoming apparent that if something like that didn't happen here, this forum would soon become useless, filled only with the loudest and most unintelligible voices screeching at the top of their voices to drown out everyone else. So I think the recent crackdown has resulted in all kinds of positive things. The forum has a chance to be more civil and quieter, with intelligent discussion instead of outright warfare all the time--it has a chance to go back to the way it was when it began. So let's keep cracking down!

[justaguy]

I just talked with a member that quit this place. He doesn’t want to deal with people complaining about thread drift and jokes. Some would use the word whining. As you can see I used the word complaining.

I could be wrong but it sounds like people want this place to be TCC #2. We could have a uniform and a hand shake. TCC is a great place if that is your personality. The guy that runs it has a lot of time and the right people in place to do exactly what he wants with it. It is his and he is the star. He doesn’t hide that fact that it is his. He permotes and defends the TCC brand well. Rucker has stated that he doesn’t think the same way about this place. He wants to just blend in with the rest and let it go. I’m a member of a forum that has around 20,000 members. I would say that it is successful, and has a lot of professionals, industry guys, “famous” members, in its focus. That forum with 20,000 members is moderated very little and profanity and nudity are allowed. Personal attacks FLOW FREELY. And not “my” kind of personal attacks one’s with bad words and really mean stuff scary stuff. The meanest SOB on the site has over 10,000 posts of the meanest most vile, scary things I have seen or heard. I thought about inviting him here. The owner of the site is well know in his field and makes his living in the focus of the site. The difference between here and there besides for the math?

People there don’t care about what others say or do. They are in charge of themselves and don’t tell others what to do or say. It is a lot like life. You are left to take care of yourself. If you don’t like something you leave or move around it. People openly make fun of people that hit the “report” button on posts. Just an observation of a larger successful site take it or leave it.

Has any one thought that maybe the age group of this site might be holding the site back? Meaning younger people aren’t as apt to take part if there are older people that know more. How many people here are under 30 or 40? The 40+ crowd is trying to tailor the site to “fit” them and maybe that’s not what the younger folks like so they leave. I don’t know but I have noticed that not too many young people are here. We lost a 20 something guy today. Rucker is 20 something, but the mods I’m guessing are in there 40’s besides ttousiy being in his 80’s. We need all ages here not just 40+. Most if not all the people that openly complain I believe are older (could be wrong). You know the whiners. I made that statement not to be an Ahole but to sound like some others around here it just happens that they sound like……...

Don’t let your anger or personal opinions let you over look other reasons why more people don’t come here. Think outside the box.

[princewally]

Has any one thought that maybe the age group of this site might be holding the site back? Meaning younger people aren’t as apt to take part if there are older people that know more. How many people here are under 30 or 40? The 40+ crowd is trying to tailor the site to “fit” them and maybe that’s not what the younger folks like so they leave. I don’t know but I have noticed that not too many young people are here. We lost a 20 something guy today. Rucker is 20 something, but the mods I’m guessing are in there 40’s besides ttousiy being in his 80’s. We need all ages here not just 40+. Most if not all the people that openly complain I believe are older (could be wrong).

It's possible, but, I don't think that's it. I know at least a few younger members are primarily on TCC, for various reasons.

[justaguy]

Then I'll go with this.

I could be wrong but it sounds like people want this place to be TCC #2. We could have a uniform and a hand shake. TCC is a great place if that is your personality. The guy that runs it has a lot of time and the right people in place to do exactly what he wants with it. It is his and he is the star. He doesn’t hide that fact that it is his. He permotes and defends the TCC brand well. Rucker has stated that he doesn’t think the same way about this place. He wants to just blend in with the rest and let it go. I’m a member of a forum that has around 20,000 members. I would say that it is successful, and has a lot of professionals, industry guys, “famous” members, in its focus. That forum with 20,000 members is moderated very little and profanity and nudity are allowed. Personal attacks FLOW FREELY. And not “my” kind of personal attacks one’s with bad words and really mean stuff scary stuff. The meanest SOB on the site has over 10,000 posts of the meanest most vile, scary things I have seen or heard. I thought about inviting him here. The owner of the site is well know in his field and makes his living in the focus of the site. The difference between here and there besides for the math?

People there don’t care about what others say or do. They are in charge of themselves and don’t tell others what to do or say. It is a lot like life. You are left to take care of yourself. If you don’t like something you leave or move around it. People openly make fun of people that hit the “report” button on posts. Just an observation of a larger successful site take it or leave it.

[David]

There isn't a lot of moderation of jokes or drift around here. Some at the beginning of this most recent phase, but a lot less now. The only serious or predictable moderation appears to happen regarding personal attacks and profanity. I can't imagine there is a significant number of people who actually have a problem with those two rules. I also can't imagine anyone not coming here because he isn't allowed to attack others. No one anyone wants to hear from, anyway.

All websites are not equal. Allowing personal attacks, profanity, or nudity might work elsewhere, but I doubt it would work here. This site is reflective of an actual, local community; it didn't create it. One of the goals of this site is also to promote activism and participation in physical events, and I suspect that goal would not be well-served by allowing some of the fights we've seen around here.

I own a site for local musicians about the size of this one, and I allow all of the things listed above. People fight, post naughty pictures, and swear like sailors. It works for us because of what we're trying to accomplish. In five years, no one has reported a single post (what would they report? There aren't any rules). If my site evolved into a place that attempted to promote involvement in the musical arts, or promoted any sort of activism, I would change those rules, or start a new one with different rules. It's all about what you want to do, and Rucker has made it very clear what he wants to accomplish with this site.

At his own request, Jac714 is no longer a moderator here. Many think he did a good job, and some don't. We've also had some discussions about how moderation will evolve, and Rucker has clarified a few important things. How about we all just start fresh, and see how things go? I have a feeling that there won't be many complaints.

[justaguy]

Just to be clear I have no complaints about this site. The profanity, nudity, and personal attacks were just to show there is more than one way to run a forum and have it grow. This site is reflective of the community. And whether people like it or not there are some people in this community “you” may not like. Just because they aren’t liked by “you” doesn’t mean they aren’t in the community.

And so people know I don’t have anything against the “old” people here.

[cmj685]

Justaguy,
Among many questions and problems I am starting to have with you, here is one:
why do you feel that you have to respond to every post and make sure that your opinion on every issue is heard over and over again? Are you so insecure that you can't sit out of one conversation without dominating it and ensuring that you have as many posts in the thread as everyone else combined? Do you worry that your voice won't be heard if you don't keep on talking nonstop? It is all getting more than just a little tiresome....Give your typing fingers some rest and stop. Just stop!and think.

[DeanC]

[justaguy]

CMJ,
You are just now starting to have problems with me?

You should ask DeanC the same question about posting so much. I have been here about the same amount of time and have fewer posts. Sorry Dean you were the first person I saw with more posts.

Thanks for the advice CMJ. I’m more than willing to answer all your questions but not in this thread. Start a thread or pm me and we can hammer out all my problems. I think you will find I’m very insecure in who I am. You putting me on the spot might break me.

[westberg]

And so people know I don’t have anything against the “old” people here.

That makes my day, we need someone younger to hand us our reading glasses.......

[justaguy]

CMJ was drifting the other thread, but I wanted to answer my fan male.(you see what I did there)
So I pasted his post below and will try to help him with his questions and his problems with me. Anything to help a fan. I hope this gives CMJ and others some insight to my "feelings". After all I'm all about feelings.

Justaguy,
Among many questions and problems I am starting to have with you, here is one:
why do you feel that you have to respond to every post and make sure that your opinion on every issue is heard over and over again? Are you so insecure that you can't sit out of one conversation without dominating it and ensuring that you have as many posts in the thread as everyone else combined? Do you worry that your voice won't be heard if you don't keep on talking nonstop? It is all getting more than just a little tiresome....Give your typing fingers some rest and stop. Just stop!and think.

CMJ if you go to the Board index page on the lower left corner you will find the Total Post of the forum. There are 44,648 posts. I have 1266 posts. I dont respond to every post. So the over and over statement is also false. I looked and know the names of people that have a higher post count. I hope you didn't offend those people. 2 of them are grumpy old men.

Am I so insecure I cant sit out? I am very insecure. You can tell I have no opinions and am easily scared. I frequently cry myself to sleep. If I dominate a thread it isn't by design. I guess I just have a strong personality. Which is weird because I'm so insecure. More posts than everyone combined? That is silly CMJ.

I dont worry about much CMJ. That holds true with my voice being heard also.

If it is tiresome for you I have two ideas that may help you. Now I want to be clear. I dont normally tell folks what to do but like I said I want to help. You can leave here or put me on ignore.

Thank your for the suggestion about giving my typing fingers a rest. CMJ I know you dont post insults but telling me to stop and think might imply that I dont think. CMJ lurkers might view that as an insult and not post because of it. CMJ I will take your ideas to heart but I will continue to live my life the way I see fit. I encourage you to do the same.

My only question for you CMJ is what do you have your sheepdog pin, pinned too? A hat, jacket, shirt, vest?