Dayton on record AGAINST 'STAND YOUR GROUND'

[grousemaster]

Shocker. Heffay backing Mark Dayton. Stand your ground is needed. Sorry Heff but your stance is warped. I don't think you can use Zimmerman as an example for stand your ground. He didn't stand his ground, Martin pinned him to the ground. jshuberg is right. With stand your ground it is a lot less likely that a prosecutor could nail you to a wall.

This may sound like a ridiculous example but I am going to use it.... Lets say a shooting/stabbing happens in a crowded area. I'm a 140 pounds and I am with my buddy who is 320 pounds. Obviously even if I am armed my first instinct is to book it for the exit, needless to say I will beat my buddy to the exit. So we will say my buddy shoots the instigator/criminal and I get called as a witness in court. A prosecutor could argue that my friend should have been able to exit as well siince we were together.

Lets be real, the law is not about justice. ITS ABOUT MISDIRECTION AND LOOPHOLES, WHOEVER PLAYS THE GAME BETTER WINS. STAND YOUR GROUND WILL NOT HURT US SO WHY NOT?

Heffay is a registered demonrat

[Heffay]

Shocker. Heffay backing Mark Dayton. Stand your ground is needed. Sorry Heff but your stance is warped. I don't think you can use Zimmerman as an example for stand your ground. He didn't stand his ground, Martin pinned him to the ground. jshuberg is right. With stand your ground it is a lot less likely that a prosecutor could nail you to a wall.

This may sound like a ridiculous example but I am going to use it.... Lets say a shooting/stabbing happens in a crowded area. I'm a 140 pounds and I am with my buddy who is 320 pounds. Obviously even if I am armed my first instinct is to book it for the exit, needless to say I will beat my buddy to the exit. So we will say my buddy shoots the instigator/criminal and I get called as a witness in court. A prosecutor could argue that my friend should have been able to exit as well siince we were together.

Lets be real, the law is not about justice. ITS ABOUT MISDIRECTION AND LOOPHOLES, WHOEVER PLAYS THE GAME BETTER WINS. STAND YOUR GROUND WILL NOT HURT US SO WHY NOT?

Heffay is a registered demonrat

Resorting to personal attacks now?

[20mm]

Resorting to personal attacks now?

If you're a registered democrat it's simply pointing out facts.

[Heffay]

Resorting to personal attacks now?

If you're a registered democrat it's simply pointing out facts.

Well, considering it's not a fact or even an accurate abstraction, I guess it goes under slander. Or is it libel? I can never keep those two straight.

[CarRacer]

Libel is written.

[Heffay]

Libel is written.

Well in any event, it's SERIOUS business.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/soci ... eat-carter

I'd hate to see grousemaster go to jail for months for an insult FAR worse than any death threat!

[Evad]

Libel is written.

Well in any event, it's SERIOUS business.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/soci ... eat-carter

I'd hate to see grousemaster go to jail for months for an insult FAR worse than any death threat!

I am betting he was talking about that other Heffay.

[Heffay]

Libel is written.

Well in any event, it's SERIOUS business.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/soci ... eat-carter

I'd hate to see grousemaster go to jail for months for an insult FAR worse than any death threat!

I am betting he was talking about that other Heffay.

Either way, JAIL TIME. Threats are threats no matter who they are made to.

[Evad]

Either way, JAIL TIME. Threats are threats no matter who they are made to.

The other Heffay is a registered Democrat.

[jshuberg]

While individual people do have the right to police their neighborhoods, follow and survail people who appear suspicious, question a person, perform citizens arrests, etc. its simply not a very good idea to do these things. Police have radios, backup, and much more training than the average person. They have the power of the state backing them, their department, their union, etc. While engaging in "police-like" activities may be perfectly lawful, by doing so you're taking a significant physical and legal risk. Calling the police and letting them deal with it is the much smarter approach whenever possible. Conflict avoidance and deescalation should always be the rule of thumb.

I have a student that performed a citizens arrest outside a bar a year or so ago. He physically restrained the individual, causing him injury in order to facilitate the citizens arrest. While I applaud his desire to break up a bad situation and arrest the bad guy, he had no idea the legal risks he was exposing himself to by doing so. Fortunately (and shockingly) the bad guy didn't lawyer up, so my friend wasn't sued, but it could have completely ruined him financially. After explaining the legal risks he exposed himself to, he seems much less likely to do the same thing again. Even a barely competent public defender would question the legality of the arrest when they discover that it was just some guy, and the legal costs you'll incur defending your actions in civil if not criminal court would likely be significant.

If I see someone I suspect is a bad guy, I'm *not* going to approach him, or do anything that would cause him to take additional notice of me. There's no upside for me in doing so. He's either not a bad guy, and nothing happens, or I'll find myself face to face with a now defensive bad guy, and the likelihood for violence has increased significantly. I'd much prefer to make the 911 call and have someone else take out the trash for me, there are very few situations where unnecessarily involving myself won't turn out badly for me in some way. It's just the smart choice.

That being said, if a person does the opposite, and injects himself into a situation that becomes violent, he's legally blameless for any resulting violence provided everything he did was lawful. Stupid doesn't necessarily mean unlawful.

[darkwolf45]

I disagree jshuberg. Often times when the cops are called it makes the situation worse, far beyond what people expected when they first called the cops. The cops are the big guns and they will do things however they see fit, often without accountabilty. A certain amount can be predicted by knowing the laws and what police procedures are, but there are those cops that wi just use their authority as a blank check.

Yes I am aware there are good cops too, and it seems to me I have seen at least one example of one on this board. I am even guessing that the majority of cops are good too, but when you call the cops you are rolling the dice on what kind of realonse you will get and the odds of a bad roll are definitely not negligible.

We owe it to ourselves to not resort to calling in the big guns for every possible situation. My issue here is the GZ clearly felt that TM WAS worth calling the big guns for, and still pursued the guy and was confrontatuonal. It was bad judgement. He was acting in a very proactive way to assert authority over another individual. An individual he had already decided was a significant enough threat that he needed to pass the job on to a greater force.

This is a much different situation than an unknown van sitting in a suburban cul de sac with people in it.

He may have been within his legal rights, but it was stupid.

[MasonK]

We owe it to ourselves to not resort to calling in the big guns for every possible situation.

Very well said. I feel that we have become so confrontation averse that we are wanting other people to deal with all of our problems. Neighbor smoking a cigar on their deck and it's blowing into my yard? Call the police! Someone is playing music too loud down the street? Call the police! Certainly there are times and circumstances where calling the police is justified, but when my red-neck neighbor decided to fire off mortars at 3AM a week before the 4th of July I didn't call the police, I told them to knock it the hell off.

My issue here is the GZ clearly felt that TM WAS worth calling the big guns for, and still pursued the guy and was confrontatuonal.

I'm not seeing the evidence that Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin. The evidence as I've read it points to Zimmerman getting out of the car to follow, he stops and completes his 911 call, and Martin returned to Zimmerman and confronted him... and by confronted, I mean attacked.

[darkwolf45]

We owe it to ourselves to not resort to calling in the big guns for every possible situation.

Very well said. I feel that we have become so confrontation averse that we are wanting other people to deal with all of our problems. Neighbor smoking a cigar on their deck and it's blowing into my yard? Call the police! Someone is playing music too loud down the street? Call the police! Certainly there are times and circumstances where calling the police is justified, but when my red-neck neighbor decided to fire off mortars at 3AM a week before the 4th of July I didn't call the police, I told them to knock it the hell off.

My issue here is the GZ clearly felt that TM WAS worth calling the big guns for, and still pursued the guy and was confrontatuonal.

I'm not seeing the evidence that Zimmerman followed and confronted Martin. The evidence as I've read it points to Zimmerman getting out of the car to follow, he stops and completes his 911 call, and Martin returned to Zimmerman and confronted him... and by confronted, I mean attacked.

Could be. I was under the impression that GZ had actually started to follow TM, but to be homest I havent followed the case very closely. It has just been too hard to get reliable reporting on it.

[Hmac]

If Heffay had any real life experience, like what Zimmerman went through, he would understand that NO law abiding American citizen should have to turn and run from a criminal. Stand your ground.

Better to just blow 'em away?

I'll bet George Zimmerman wishes he'd had the opportunity to have turned around and run from Trayvon Martin.

What do we have here? a bunch of Mary's who toss aside God given Rights? I'll bet Zimmerman wishes alot of things, but it doesn't change the fact that a person should be able to go anywhere without having to plan a hasty retreat because some one thinks that they can do what ever illegal acts they desire. Again it's simple, if you are abiding the law, stand your ground.

Sounds like an attitude representing a good recipe for a road rage incident. Or worse.

[darkwolf45]

Sounds like an attitude representing a good recipe for a road rage incident. Or worse.

A right to be in a given place does not equal a right to cause or wantonly escalate a conflict to violence.