Business idea

[Evad]

Wow Sam that seems a little harsh.

First time you read a post of Sam's?

[grimbeaver]

Wow Sam that seems a little harsh.

First time you read a post of Sam's?

Probably not, but I am fairly new here so guess I don't know his reputation yet.

[cobb]

You're asking for legal advice on a forum that could you wind you up in even deeper water than the questions we get in here about what to do when you got a rap sheet and your P2Cgets denied?? Dude!! Seriously!!! You need serious legal advice on a number of fronts, which is gonna cost you a bunch of money, and even then you STILL have to work out a realistic business model that will net you some money at the end of the day. And past the legal issues, you will be in direct competition with Bill's, who rents out a HUGE selection of guns for an afternoon. Yeah, maybe we get a few people in here that say they bought a gun and now hate it, but are those numbers BIG enough to make a living with Bill's weeding out 75% of your prospects with daily rentals to begin with??

My gut says you'll never even generate enough money to cover your legal costs, much less show a profit.

Oh, and have you considered that WHEN another Sandy Hook happens, the ammo supply is going to zero and your business will go down the toilet for 6 months to a year??

You want to start cheap, work out the business model first and figure out what you would have to make to break even, and you WILL need to factor in how much of your business is getting pre-empted by Bill's.

Oh, and I got within a hair's breadth of leaving 3M and forming up my own startup for a product which now sells $600MM a year JUST in the US, and had the clinical feasibility done and the marketing numbers, so I'm not just guessing about this stuff.

What a kill joy.

Sam, the guy was just throwing out an idea and looking for thoughts and input on the idea. I don't think he is posting to get his legal advice here, just if a good or bad idea. Who cares about Bills, ForeverTwoWheels appears to have a different rental plan that may be more well suited to some, I could see a hunter's interest.

Maybe your right, a person today should not try to start their own business, resources or supplies could become unavailable and the business goes bankrupt, who in America would be so foolish to have the notion to start their own business. Lets all kick back, go on the government program and live out the rest of our years sitting on the front porch and complain about what is wrong with the world today.

[s4oak]

You'd be transferring firearms to and from the various client individuals. with all the procedural responsibilities that entails. With firearms, possession is ownership.

How does a place like Bill's handle that? Seems like possession is possession, regardless of whether you remain in their building the whole time.

[mrp]

You'd be transferring firearms to and from the various client individuals. with all the procedural responsibilities that entails. With firearms, possession is ownership.

How does a place like Bill's handle that? Seems like possession is possession, regardless of whether you remain in their building the whole time.

I don't think the legal aspect of renting the firearm would be a problem.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

[xd ED]

You'd be transferring firearms to and from the various client individuals. with all the procedural responsibilities that entails. With firearms, possession is ownership.

How does a place like Bill's handle that? Seems like possession is possession, regardless of whether you remain in their building the whole time.

I don't think the legal aspect of renting the firearm would be a problem.

http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Perhaps a key phrase here is: ".... A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes..."

That might not fly with someone renting a try-out carry pistol.

I've never rented from Bill's. but as I understand it they are pretty much in control re where you can shoot and even using the ammo you buy from them....not really the same as heading out the door for 2 weeks unobserved or unsupervised.

[FJ540]

That's also a provision for the common man, not a FFL. If it's on the FFL books (not your private collection), you've gotta play by the GCA rules, and that means NICS checks.

Can a private party engage in the commercial rental of their personal firearms? Oof da.

[Seismic Sam]

Harsh?? How many of you have ACTUALLY been ready to commit over half of a one million dollar inheritance to buying a patent back from a company for a product that would save 3,000 American lives a year?? I was, and if I had been able to pull it off my monthly income would have been more than the yearly income of the CEO of 3M, and that's no joke, and I ran the numbers. FYI, the product is MFE electrodes, which are the defib electrodes which are legally required in every AED in every airport, hospital, casino, and most public places these days, and the market is still growing expotentially. Look at starting a business, ANY business. Think you can do it without fire extinguishers on the premises?? Uhh, that's a big NO!!

We're at about the 40% market saturation rate for AED's, and the laws will force this market to get as big as fire extinguishers. Got stuff 10 years old that has all the financial data plotted out, and the reality has tracked very close to this 10 year old data, and if there's any difference, it's on the high side.

So unless you have walked the walk and talked the talk up until the point I did, you can STFU about my attitude. And yes, it was so EASY doing my market research to find EMT's who would admit that patient X died because the defib electrode was DOA in the package when they put it on him, and by the time they got a 2nd one placed he was gone. It happens DAILY, and is totally preventable if you choose the right substrate metal to begin with.

And as far as this particular case, the LAST thing you want to do is market research with people on a gun forum who know a lot about guns, and have found the one they like. You need to hang out at Bill's for months, and listen to n00bs picking rental guns, and work up your business model from THAT. THOSE people are your potential customers, and NOT the people in here!!

Oh, and excuse me, but if you're a graduate from any MBA course, you'll know all this to begin with, and how to target and analyze your target market, and run the numbers, and do all the rest of this stuff.

So to get down to brass tacks with this business model, you're going to have to be able to offer something longer term that Bill's can't offer with daily rentals. That's almost a stopper right there, in that Bill's offers and obscene number of guns to rent, and they can afford to do this. Oh, and they offer ALL the POPULAR guns! Double stopper! Don't know what the business model is, but they can afford to plow probably 50 - 60 new guns into rentals, and sell them used, and make the rentals pay for the depreciation with money to spare.

So what can YOU offer down the line that they can't get at Bill's, even assuming there are no legal problems?? I'm not seeing a huge market in loaning out Ed Browns, Nighthawks, Guncrafters, and HiPoints to people a week at a time down the line. Probably the best market is longer term rentals of Glocks and M&P's, plus the compacts like Kahr and others. Those guns are at least cheap and easy to get, so your entry fee isn't huge.
That would be where I would focus my activities, and you would want to start with having hard sales numbers for those guns, and THEN maybe you would do a poll in here about the percentage of people in here who actually picked the wrong gun and got another one 6 months later, and I think that number is pretty low. You also need to distinguish between people who actually hated one gun and got another, rather than what most of us do, which is keep buying guns we like.

So that's what the coffee smells like if you're trying to start your own business, sunshine, and the realities are pretty hard and this is a competitive world, so you have to offer something truly unique and valuable if you're going to make a go of it. If nothing else, I'd talk to Michael Martin about his book, and see what you can learn from him about the feedback that he gets from tens of thousands or readers, and see if there's some key need that could be factored into the front end of the whole learning process about buying and carrying a handgun, and how gun renting might be factored into this initial learning process.

Oh, and you're very welcome for this free idea, and I doubt this combination would have been suggested by anyone else. Michael will probably want a cut, and you'd do well to try and learn from his own startup business effort.

P.S: Any unique new business idea springs from the imagination of someone who understands the market and the products in it, and has some one-of-a-kind insight into that market that nobody else has. You will NEVER get to first base asking other people for good ideas or critiques on your own thoughts out here on the internet. That ain't the way Hewlett, Packard, Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs wound up doing what they did. Inspiriation only comes from within.

[bstrawse]

I suspect you will need some number crunchers to help figure this out for you from a business model perspective.

[Ron Burgundy]

Harsh?? How many of you have ACTUALLY been ready to commit over half of a one million dollar inheritance to buying a patent back from a company for a product that would save 3,000 American lives a year?? I was, and if I had been able to pull it off my monthly income would have been more than the yearly income of the CEO of 3M, and that's no joke, and I ran the numbers. FYI, the product is MFE electrodes, which are the defib electrodes which are legally required in every AED in every airport, hospital, casino, and most public places these days, and the market is still growing expotentially. Look at starting a business, ANY business. Think you can do it without fire extinguishers on the premises?? Uhh, that's a big NO!!

We're at about the 40% market saturation rate for AED's, and the laws will force this market to get as big as fire extinguishers. Got stuff 10 years old that has all the financial data plotted out, and the reality has tracked very close to this 10 year old data, and if there's any difference, it's on the high side.

Not a troll, I'm legitimately interested. Why didn't it work out? Sounds like an interesting product. At least you were able to walk away with a one million dollar inheritance. That's Mrs. Heffay kind of money.

[Erud]

Harsh?? How many of you have ACTUALLY been ready to commit over half of a one million dollar inheritance to buying a patent back from a company for a product that would save 3,000 American lives a year?? I was, and if I had been able to pull it off my monthly income would have been more than the yearly income of the CEO of 3M, and that's no joke, and I ran the numbers. FYI, the product is MFE electrodes, which are the defib electrodes which are legally required in every AED in every airport, hospital, casino, and most public places these days, and the market is still growing expotentially. Look at starting a business, ANY business. Think you can do it without fire extinguishers on the premises?? Uhh, that's a big NO!!

We're at about the 40% market saturation rate for AED's, and the laws will force this market to get as big as fire extinguishers. Got stuff 10 years old that has all the financial data plotted out, and the reality has tracked very close to this 10 year old data, and if there's any difference, it's on the high side.

So unless you have walked the walk and talked the talk up until the point I did, you can STFU about my attitude. And yes, it was so EASY doing my market research to find EMT's who would admit that patient X died because the defib electrode was DOA in the package when they put it on him, and by the time they got a 2nd one placed he was gone. It happens DAILY, and is totally preventable if you choose the right substrate metal to begin with.

And as far as this particular case, the LAST thing you want to do is market research with people on a gun forum who know a lot about guns, and have found the one they like. You need to hang out at Bill's for months, and listen to n00bs picking rental guns, and work up your business model from THAT. THOSE people are your potential customers, and NOT the people in here!!

Oh, and excuse me, but if you're a graduate from any MBA course, you'll know all this to begin with, and how to target and analyze your target market, and run the numbers, and do all the rest of this stuff.

So to get down to brass tacks with this business model, you're going to have to be able to offer something longer term that Bill's can't offer with daily rentals. That's almost a stopper right there, in that Bill's offers and obscene number of guns to rent, and they can afford to do this. Oh, and they offer ALL the POPULAR guns! Double stopper! Don't know what the business model is, but they can afford to plow probably 50 - 60 new guns into rentals, and sell them used, and make the rentals pay for the depreciation with money to spare.

So what can YOU offer down the line that they can't get at Bill's, even assuming there are no legal problems?? I'm not seeing a huge market in loaning out Ed Browns, Nighthawks, Guncrafters, and HiPoints to people a week at a time down the line. Probably the best market is longer term rentals of Glocks and M&P's, plus the compacts like Kahr and others. Those guns are at least cheap and easy to get, so your entry fee isn't huge.
That would be where I would focus my activities, and you would want to start with having hard sales numbers for those guns, and THEN maybe you would do a poll in here about the percentage of people in here who actually picked the wrong gun and got another one 6 months later, and I think that number is pretty low. You also need to distinguish between people who actually hated one gun and got another, rather than what most of us do, which is keep buying guns we like.

So that's what the coffee smells like if you're trying to start your own business, sunshine, and the realities are pretty hard and this is a competitive world, so you have to offer something truly unique and valuable if you're going to make a go of it. If nothing else, I'd talk to Michael Martin about his book, and see what you can learn from him about the feedback that he gets from tens of thousands or readers, and see if there's some key need that could be factored into the front end of the whole learning process about buying and carrying a handgun, and how gun renting might be factored into this initial learning process.

Oh, and you're very welcome for this free idea, and I doubt this combination would have been suggested by anyone else. Michael will probably want a cut, and you'd do well to try and learn from his own startup business effort.

P.S: Any unique new business idea springs from the imagination of someone who understands the market and the products in it, and has some one-of-a-kind insight into that market that nobody else has. You will NEVER get to first base asking other people for good ideas or critiques on your own thoughts out here on the internet. That ain't the way Hewlett, Packard, Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs wound up doing what they did. Inspiriation only comes from within.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Another boring and self-righteous waste of bandwidth.

[crbutler]

Interesting idea, but I think you way overestimate the market.

First, to address high end guns- I own a few, and really, I would not have gone through the business you are talking about. Custom means made to your specs. A high end rifle has a stock that is made to your dimensions, and just hauling out something is not going to tell the prospective buyer much about what their personal example will be like.

How many pistols does Baer make in a year? Maybe 1000, but if I recall the number is a lot less. I think Wilson is under 1 K as well. Your market would be the well under 500 folks who buy a custom a year, who have not already decided what they want, but they are going to buy, in effect the well heeled impulse buyer. You might also get a group of folks who want to shoot a high dollar gun, but have absolutely no desire to buy one. This reduces your goal of selling these folks the new gun to make your profit.

So, you would need a very large inventory (how many different options does Baer offer with their guns) and most will sit of the shelf for long periods of time. High end shotguns (H&H or Purdey) and rifles (H&H, Rigby, etc.) are 6-figure plus items, and are bespoke made, so this whole idea will not work there anyhow. The handguns are mid 4 figure items. Assuming a 100% rental rate, and 10 year capitalization you could rent the handgun for $9.50 and break even after 10 years without including capitalization costs. More realistic numbers (25% rental, pay off in 2 years) would be a $195/week rental fee. Realistic numbers, not sure- it would have to be a intrastate business by US firearms laws- how many customers are wanting to rent a Wilson top end gun? A H&H Royal grade double? Probably 100 times that... And that is not figuring in overhead, employees, insurance, lawyer's fees, etc. That's just buying 1 $5000 pistol.

Mid range guns (fancy SIG's, Hammerli's SVI/STI) are still 4 figure items. A bit more doable, but still- how many folks want to rent a Sig P 210, and how long will that item be desired for rent?

Standard guns (Glocks, Berettas, your production 1911's) you would be competing with people like Bill's, but the idea of going and playing with the piece for a week straight undoubtedly would have a few takers- this is where you would probably make some money, albeit not much, and there would need to be some volume.

To address your question more directly, you could certainly find insurance that will cover you for this venture- that is how those big car rentals are covered- but it will probably be cost prohibitive.

Fundamentally, as I see this "idea"- if you are a millionaire collector who wants to write off his gun hobby as a tax deduction (ie business expense) and are willing to not be able to use your property on an as needed basis, you will probably over time recoup your investment- but you will not be making any real rate of return.

This idea is marketable, but I doubt it is a good investment.

[XDM45]

Sam is a bit harsh, but then so is reality. I think some serious market research is needed along with proper insurances, legal to be setup, and of course capitalization, which is the number 1 reason new businesses fail - undercapitalization. Sam covered a lot of good info, albeit in a harsh way, he's right, but he did come across rather hard with the presentation of the information.

There's only one reason to start a business - to make money. Many people think "I like X so I'll start a business doing X."... however what they fail to realize is that as the principle of the company, they are going to spend more time doing just about everything except X. They will be doing marketing, management, fundraising, projections, working on the business plan and modifying it if needed, accounting, and everything else at first. Some good rules of thumb that also cross every line of business as well are:

The 80/20 Rule which states that 80% of your business will come from 20% of your customers. This means that for every 100 customers you have, 20 of them are funding your business and keeping it alive. If your business is a bar, it's not he 500 people in your club every night keeping you alive, it's the people that are in the bar every day at 11am when you open and who drink there until late afternoon every day. Related to customers is the cost of obtaining them vs. keeping them. getting new customers is always expensive compared to keeping existing ones. It's the same for employees as well.

Next up is the 90/10 Rule which states that the principle will make 10% of the gross of the business as their pay, so if your business makes $100,000 a year, you as the principal will make $10,000. If you're making $50,000 a year now at a job, figure in the additional expenses you'll need for yourself such as life insurance, health benefits (if you can qualify for them on your own) and add that into your income needs as well. So now instead of needing to make $50,000 a year, you'd better plan on needing another $25,000 on top of that, so $75,000 a year is approximately what you'll need as my guesstimate, which means your business will need to make at least $750,000 a year, and more is preferable of course.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but there's a LOT to consider in opening and running ANY business, even more so in this day and age of where brick and mortar stores fail faster than ever before. If you're in a mall, expect to deal with Triple NET as well. Electricity will cost more, as will phones, city taxes, what may fly in one city and location won't in another (what if you're near a school, hospital, etc?) Again, extensive research is needed.

Look at McDonalds.... most people think they are in the fast food business, and their not. McDonald's business is real estate. they could shutdown every store and STILL have a viable business renting out the locations for other businesses because 1) they own more land than the Catholic Church and that's saying a LOT.... and 2) they do a year of research before they build and can guarantee that within 1 year, you'll make your million dollar investment back AND be profitable. You don't see McDonald's close very often now do you? My wife ran a video store business for 25 years, got legislation passed for the First Video Doctrine, was the Present of the VSDA for 10 years, consulted with new business owners and setup turnkey operations from the ground up with new business owners. One of her most profitable stores and best locations of her multi-store business was next to a McDonald's in Inver Grove Heights.

I think your idea MAY work, but you need to spend some serious time and energy in effort researching all different areas of your potential business. It may take you a year or more depending how detailed you want to get with it. Remember, it's not personal, it's just business. You need to look at it without passion and be objective. Do the numbers work? If they don't, can you make them work? If not, move on. As a business owner, you'll get paid last, if at all, and you'll wear every hat and work harder, longer, faster, better, and with more desire than anyone else. It will become your life 24/7/365. Are you ready for that kind of commitment?

[Seismic Sam]

Harsh?? How many of you have ACTUALLY been ready to commit over half of a one million dollar inheritance to buying a patent back from a company for a product that would save 3,000 American lives a year?? I was, and if I had been able to pull it off my monthly income would have been more than the yearly income of the CEO of 3M, and that's no joke, and I ran the numbers. FYI, the product is MFE electrodes, which are the defib electrodes which are legally required in every AED in every airport, hospital, casino, and most public places these days, and the market is still growing expotentially. Look at starting a business, ANY business. Think you can do it without fire extinguishers on the premises?? Uhh, that's a big NO!!

We're at about the 40% market saturation rate for AED's, and the laws will force this market to get as big as fire extinguishers. Got stuff 10 years old that has all the financial data plotted out, and the reality has tracked very close to this 10 year old data, and if there's any difference, it's on the high side.

Not a troll, I'm legitimately interested. Why didn't it work out? Sounds like an interesting product. At least you were able to walk away with a one million dollar inheritance. That's Mrs. Heffay kind of money.

Long story, and the startup was blocked by a phony competitor in Louisiana who supposedly could defib a heart with about 1/10th the power needed for REAL defib, and this paralyzed the new products in the defib industry for a year and a half. Turned out to be a complete scam, and the two VP's did 7 and 8 years hard time, and the CEO got 14 years in orange pajamas. My company's decision not to pursue the product was a LOT more reprehensible and short sighted, and I got the proof that everybody up to the VP level knew they were pulling the plug on 3,000 lives a year by not going through with this. This in a large part is what turned me into the bitter old man I am today.

[XDM45]

Harsh?? How many of you have ACTUALLY been ready to commit over half of a one million dollar inheritance to buying a patent back from a company for a product that would save 3,000 American lives a year?? I was, and if I had been able to pull it off my monthly income would have been more than the yearly income of the CEO of 3M, and that's no joke, and I ran the numbers. FYI, the product is MFE electrodes, which are the defib electrodes which are legally required in every AED in every airport, hospital, casino, and most public places these days, and the market is still growing expotentially. Look at starting a business, ANY business. Think you can do it without fire extinguishers on the premises?? Uhh, that's a big NO!!

We're at about the 40% market saturation rate for AED's, and the laws will force this market to get as big as fire extinguishers. Got stuff 10 years old that has all the financial data plotted out, and the reality has tracked very close to this 10 year old data, and if there's any difference, it's on the high side.

Not a troll, I'm legitimately interested. Why didn't it work out? Sounds like an interesting product. At least you were able to walk away with a one million dollar inheritance. That's Mrs. Heffay kind of money.

Long story, and the startup was blocked by a phony competitor in Louisiana who supposedly could defib a heart with about 1/10th the power needed for REAL defib, and this paralyzed the new products in the defib industry for a year and a half. Turned out to be a complete scam, and the two VP's did 7 and 8 years hard time, and the CEO got 14 years in orange pajamas. 3M's decision not to pursue the product was a LOT more reprehensible and short sighted, and I got the proof that everybody up to the VP level knew they were pulling the plug on 3,000 lives a year by not going through with this. This in a large part is what turned me into the bitter old man I am today.

Sam, it sounds like they used the old Microsoft trick of EEE (Embrace, Extend, Exterminate). How that works is someone comes up with a new technology and then Microsoft embraces it, then everyone watches to see when, if, and how they will extend it by incorporating into Windows, Office, one or more Microsoft products, only to have Microsoft say "Nah, it doesn't work out." and exterminate the idea. By that time, the originating person/company of the technology ans basically be cockblocked and since everyone else waited, it's pretty much dead. Microsoft doesn't create things, it uses existing code, programs, and absorbs them, usually in a very bad, bad way.

EEE is akin and often used with FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, another fine product of the Microsoft world.

Long live Linux, FOSS, Gratis and Libre freedoms. Break down the walls.