The current climate of the shooting sports in MN

[westberg]

I know there is a lot of members here who have an interest in the shooting sports, it doesn't matter what your favorite shooting discipline is. We're all in it together to further our favorite sport or training and shooting in general.

The topic was started on the mnuspsa forum http://mnuspsa.org/forum/index.php and topic http://mnuspsa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2210 I think this is a great topic to generate ideas. This can be expanded to self defense training also, because I know for a fact the self defense training classes do pull in students from the shooting sports. This is not about which is better, it's about getting the word out about events and classes and helping people interested getting started. It also doesn't matter if the discussion is here, there or both.

The first question is how can resources be brought together to better inform the shooting public? Gun ranges, matches and trainers struggle with this. The club websites, the local forums, Bob Mills email list and Facebook are all good resources if you know about them. The most common thing I hear from new people is I didn't know about it or how do I find out about these things.

[jonahk]

Thanks for cross posting this, Ron. I'm looking forward to the dialog on both forums.

Anyone shot USPSA in other states? In some ways I think we've got it pretty good here in MN, especially when you compare to a lot of the states in the North East that I travel to on a regular basis. They are all shocked that I can go shoot a match almost any day of the week.

[highwarden]

About 10 years ago when I retired for the first time, I started looking at shooting competitions as a regular activity. Since then I kept looking for something I would like to participate in on a regular basis. I am still looking. My son and I had a discussion on what we did not like about the available matches. Below is a list of some of the things that discouraged us from competing. If this thread continues as thoughtful adult conversation, I will explain in detail the items on this list.

!. too much ammunition required.
2. too many rules.
3. rules restricting matches or divisions to certain calibers with no reasonable explanation.
4. unrealistic fantasy scenarios
5. too many gamers
6. too many cheaters
7. too few hunter class or sporter class divisions offered at matches
8. too many ignorant, arrogant, biased, thin-skinned match directors, range officers, club officers, etc. Lighten up, people, you are taking yourself way too seriously.

9. Lack of modern technology in scoring. It is available and it does not have to be too expensive.

10. unwillingness to accept ties. Way to much time spent on tie breakers. If the score is the same, it is a tie. Get over it.

I realize that the above is my personal opinion but it is based on what I have learned when friends have declined to continue to go to matches with me.

[westberg]

I, we want a thoughtful discussion on this topic, if posts start to go south, I'll ask the mods to remove them. This is by no means going to be one sport is better then the other or competition vs self defense training. Its about how do we bring people back into the shooting sports and get new people involved. Also get information out to people.

[goaliemn]

I like the fact that some high schools have skeet shooting clubs and it will be state sanctioned soon. I know the gun club I belong to sponsors our high school's team. Gotta get more schools involved tho.

[igofast]

Thanks for cross posting this, Ron. I'm looking forward to the dialog on both forums.

Anyone shot USPSA in other states? In some ways I think we've got it pretty good here in MN, especially when you compare to a lot of the states in the North East that I travel to on a regular basis. They are all shocked that I can go shoot a match almost any day of the week.

Spent 7 years in California. I lived far from the coast - but unless I wanted to travel 2+ hours I was limited to 1 'fun' (lower round count) and 1 standard USPSA match a month, then a club rifle match once a month. No IDPA, no cowboy action, no 3-gun(again without travelling a long way), no rimfire shoots, no steel shoots. Lots of Trap, but unfortunately I never got into that. It's truly awe inspiring to see all the options in any one weekend - I'm glad I'm back.

[westberg]

I like the fact that some high schools have skeet shooting clubs and it will be state sanctioned soon. I know the gun club I belong to sponsors our high school's team. Gotta get more schools involved tho.

In the traditional shotgun shooting the high school trap is the fastest growing area. At FLSC we have a very popular youth trap program with introductory to archery and .22 rimfire shooting.

[highwarden]

The first problem I see is getting the information out to new people who might be interested but don't know where to look for schedules, calendars, etc. These might be people newly interested in some kind of competition or people who have moved in from out of the area. I just clicked on the calendar button here and the calendar is pretty empty. Earlier this summer I was planning on doing some silhouette shooting. I went from website to website looking for information and found very little. Even some of the clubs that were hosting matches didn't have them posted on their websites. When I asked someone about this they said" Oh you have to call the discipline chair".

Another thing I have found is matches that are patterned after national organization's matches but are not sanctioned by the national organization so they don't show up in the national organization's calendar.

[westberg]

That certainly is an issue and encountered it myself. Two calendars that are pretty much update for the run and gun stuff can be found here http://www.mngunsite.com/ and here http://www.calendar.yahoo.com/mnsection

It can be a real problem if the clubs themselves aren't keeping them update. We struggle with our website because as it is now it takes an outside web person to makes changes. We are working on changing that.

[Snowgun]

Your comments are kind of peculiar in relationship to the definition of competition....but let me take a crack at this and maybe help find what you are looking for:

!. too much ammunition required

What is your ammo expenditure expectations? 10 rounds? 50? Uspsa runs about 120 for league, idpa about 60-80. I cant think of a conpetition that people would bother attending under 40 rounds.

2. too many rules.

This needs more explanation. Even bullseye league has rules. And safety is non negotiable, the more dynamic the event the more boundries need to be drawn.

3. rules restricting matches or divisions to certain calibers with no reasonable explanation

Divisions are for grouping competitors so they can reasonably compete against each other. All matches outline this in official rules, but mainly this is self evident. Do you want to shoot steel challenge with a 45 while i use a .22 For example.

4. unrealistic fantasy scenarios

Its only a game. Defensive training is a separate entity.

5. too many gamers

Its a game. See upper answer regarding divisions.

6. too many cheaters

Personally have never seen one. Do you have specific examples?

7. too few hunter class or sporter class divisions offered at matches

Nate berg i believe has a great rifle competition at faribault that has this. But i agree there could be more...

8. too many ignorant, arrogant, biased, thin-skinned match directors, range officers, club officers, etc. Lighten up, people, you are taking yourself way too seriously.

Safety is paramount, if someone is deemed to be acting in an unsafe way nobody cares if there is butthurt when they are corrected. Second is making sure there are no cheaters and that divisions are adhered to. Yes there are some over the top people but if one follows the rules there will be no issues.

9. Lack of modern technology in scoring. It is available and it does not have to be too expensive.

I have had conversations about this as well, but have yet to find a feasible and non expensive option. Most clubs run on shoestring budgets to keep matches affordable for everyone. I would be very interested in any ideas/examples.

10. unwillingness to accept ties. Way to much time spent on tie breakers. If the score is the same, it is a tie. Get over it.

Not sure which particular event this refers to, dont see ties often in action pistol, but personally think ties suck. If they happen the game is broken.

I think the great thing about your questions is that the shooting sports need to do a better job managing expectations and marketing what the are...and what they are not.

[Snowgun]

That certainly is an issue and encountered it myself. Two calendars that are pretty much update for the run and gun stuff can be found here http://www.mngunsite.com/ and here http://www.calendar.yahoo.com/mnsection

It can be a real problem if the clubs themselves aren't keeping them update. We struggle with our website because as it is now it takes an outside web person to makes changes. We are working on changing that.

I and someone else tries hard to keep the mngunsite calendar up to date, but it is real difficult with wishy washy source material (read, club and league calenders). Since I started i have heard that it is a help from various people. It would be easier for me to keep it up to date if the clubs/ranges would also do their part, and maybe be proactive about announcing schedule changes.

[rugersol]

here's another link ... https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mngunsite@gmail.com&ctz=America/Chicago

[Ron Burgundy]

I found Benny's steel shoots & the newbie night (hosted by Tim Warner & Rugersol, I believe) at OGC to be great ways to break the ice. More events like these would help foster growth, I believe. Holster work & competition can be a little intimidating at first.

I'm thankful for the aforementioned for hosting such events. Same to Bob Mills for his list and Snowgun's calendar. Westberg is one of the few guys to stock the basic gear a guy will need to get started. So, thank you guys for your work -I hear the pay is great!

[rugersol]

I'm retired!

[westberg]

I found Benny's steel shoots & the newbie night (hosted by Tim Warner & Rugersol, I believe) at OGC to be great ways to break the ice. More events like these would help foster growth, I believe. Holster work & competition can be a little intimidating at first.

I'm thankful for the aforementioned for hosting such events. Same to Bob Mills for his list and Snowgun's calendar. Westberg is one of the few guys to stock the basic gear a guy will need to get started. So, thank you guys for your work -I hear the pay is great!

The opportunity to find a shooting events is there and I agree some basic or intro types events are very popular, if you know about them. That's still the big question, how to get the word out. The second question is, at matches you see and meet people who only shoot at that club, why don't people travel to matches at other clubs?