Long range affordable rifle caliber?

[Slayer_MN1]

just ran some numbers, comparing the 308 with a 168vld @ 2600fps and the 105vld @ 3300 both with 10mph 90* crosswind at 1000yds.

308 has 107.5" drift and retains 506ft/lbs of energy

243ai has 64.2" of drift and retains 670ft/lbs of energy.

With a factory barrel standard 243 i'd expect to be closer to the 3150fps range but that would still be a significant improvement.

[Slayer_MN1]

The .243 is a very flat shooting round but does get tossed by the wine due to light bullets (110 grain is the largest I have see). The .243 won't beat the snot out of you on a long range day either. I shot 40+ one day and didn't pay the price on my shoulder.

The .308 will have more recoil but will not loose energy as fast and will be effective further out. The .308 will not be tossed by the wind as easy with a heavier bullet.

The ballistic co-efficient is the biggest determining factor in how much wind drift and drop you will have, heavier bullets are not always as efficient as a lighter heavy-for-caliber bullet. there are some great high B.C. 30 cal bullets but the 308 doesn't have enough case capacity to push them fast enough to make them a viable choice.

Certainly not knocking the tried and true 308, I just don't think its the best choice in a long range hunting caliber.

[farmerj]

compare your ballistics.

The standards for the military have been the .30-06, .308 and then the .223.

For similar ranges, one thing I noticed is that the hold-overs are almost identical for all those cartridges on MILITARY specs. Yeah, they arch like a rainbow, but they are CONSISTENT and that can be trained for and used to their advantage.

Since I spent so much time shooting in the military, I am comfortable with those ranges and what I need to do with them. I have recorded range cards and range books to fall back onto and can get just about any military shooter range book and things will be close for both of us.

Partly why I stick with the H4895 and IMR 4895. It works in all 4 rounds and the data is just THERE for it. I don't really have to recreate the wheel.

[grousemaster]

just ran some numbers, comparing the 308 with a 168vld @ 2600fps and the 105vld @ 3300 both with 10mph 90* crosswind at 1000yds.

308 has 107.5" drift and retains 506ft/lbs of energy

243ai has 64.2" of drift and retains 670ft/lbs of energy.

With a factory barrel standard 243 i'd expect to be closer to the 3150fps range but that would still be a significant improvement.

Amazing the .243 isn't used over the .308 in military/LEO applications as well....can we get someone to double check his numbers ? lol

Edit: okay, I'll do it.

When I compare rounds on Federals website I can't find a single .243 offering that carries as much energy or bucks the wind better than a standard 168 grain .308 load....

Per the Federal website the .308 168gr GMM leaves the muzzle with 2,619 ft/lbs of energy and still has 1,179 foot lbs at 500yds.

Edit: looks like the .243 shines in the 600+ yard shooting.....didn't look at data for that. I never shoot that far either....

The most energetic .243 load I found on the site had a muzzle energy of 1,850 ft/lbs and that dropped down to 701 ft/lbs at 500yds. Also, the wind drift was much worse for all .243 loads when compared to about any .308 load....you can verify here: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx

From what I can tell the .243 just isn't in the .308's league for long range killing (specifically, energy and drift down range)....maybe you have your numbers backwards?

[MaryB]

All those Appleseed events are a 2 hour ++ drive for me so pass. I am capable of learning long range on my own. I do reload and would be doing research for the best load and asking my nephew what is available and used up there in AK. That is also a consideration is ammo availability in AK where he lives in case the airline decides to send mine to China. I am really leaning to 308, it is what he uses (asked him last night) so ammo could be shared.

[Slayer_MN1]

Amazing the ,243 doesn't seem to kill deer as easily as a .308....probably my goof ups.

Amazing the .243 isn't used over the .308 in military/LEO applications as well....can we get someone to double check his numbers ? lol

LOL, I've shot and seen shot a variety of big game animals and haven't noticed much of a difference in lethality between a 7.62x39 and a 338RUM. As far as i'm concerned its all about shot placement and making sure the bullet has enough energy to get the job done. I wouldn't shoot an elk with the 243 beyond 400yds, but i'm comfortable out to 700 if its calm on a narrow bodied pronghorn.

LE and military have to stick with what NATO has to offer, and in the case of LE the ammo has to be factory made. Some departments do use other more efficient chamberings but it is very hard to beat the factory match ammo offerings in the 308, they also take into account the difference in the life of the barrel as a police sniper/designated marksman generally puts quite a few rounds downrange per year.
Check out the scores from various sniper/tactical matches and see what people are shooting. This is an interesting read, scroll down a bit to see George Gardner owner of GA precision shooting a 243 that he won the annual snipershide cup match with a couple years ago. http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

If you'd like to run the numbers of these or your favorite calibers/loads this is my favorite calculator http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Sorry for derailing the thread, back on topic

[crbutler]

I guess I will be a little contrary here. Most of what folks are saying sounds like good advice, but I may be reading something else in your question.

For hitting long range targets (over 500 yards) you can do that with pretty much any quality rifle- the cartridge will not make much difference, other than how accurate your wind reading and ranging have to be.

For killing a moose, that depends. Firstly, anyone who deliberately plans on shooting a moose at 500 yards should take a serious look at themself. I would think (from experience) that most moose kills are under 100 yards.

A moose is big and pretty phlegmatic, while eskimos shoot them in the head with good results with .223's, (of course its at ranges of feet...) most hunters use some stripe of magnum (usually because they are big and wherever there are moose up there, there are also bears.) A .308/.30-06 will do just fine, but probably not at 500+ yards. They are also quite big, so range estimation is really goofy until you have seen a lot of them up close. Last time I hunted them, I was using a .330 Dakota (but I was also hunting Brown Bear as well), another guy had a .300 WBY, a third had a 7 Mag, and one had a .30-06. We all killed moose at under 150 yards. I was the only one who had bullets shoot through the animals. The guides had .300 Mag, another .330 Dakota, and an 8mm Mag.

If you are looking for a cartridge that will work well for long range shooting and be good for killing big game at more reasonable distances, then get a .308. The long range match bullets will shoot well at distance and have good BC's. A good heavy game bullet (like a 180 partition) will not have that good of a BC, so it will not shoot all that flat or buck the wind real well. You need to use the right tool for the job. The .308 uses less powder (and thus has less recoil) than the 06, and the brass is (usually) cheaper.

If you really intend to bust a moose at 600-800 yards, the smallest gun I would look at would be a .338 Mag. Be aware that most ( I read that a relative is taking you but...) guides up there state if you hit the animal you are done, (as I recall in AK's game laws it says wounding an animal is the use of your tag... I think Nugent got busted for this a year or two ago...)

[Slayer_MN1]

243 WIN 105VLD 105 GR. 0.532 B.C. 3150fps
Range Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Trajectory -1.5 0 -2.5 -9.4 -21.5 -39.3 -63.7 -95.7 -136.5 -187.3 -249.9
Wind Drift 0 0.5 2.2 4.9 9 14.5 21.5 30.3 41 53.7 68.8

308 168VLD 2600 168 GR. 0.473 B.C.
Range Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Trajectory -1.5 0 -4.5 -15.9 -35.4 -64.5 -104.8 -158.6 -228.1 -316.5 -427.1
Wind Drift 0 0.8 3.2 7.4 13.6 22.1 33.2 47 63.9 84 107.5

Sorry the charts above aren't lined up but this should get the point accross. You were comparing a 308 168 sierra match bullet against a 243 hunting bullet (apples and oranges, compare a flat base 308 soft point to the GMM 168), this comparison is both calibers mentioned using the Berger match hunting VLD and real world velocities. Nothing is backwards, I do shoot these distances and these are real figures. I'm not in any way trying to say the 243 is a miracle chambering, just that there are more effective long range chamberings. I only use the 243ai for prarie dogs, coyotes, antelope, and deer, I used my 280AI for the only thing bigger that i've taken (cow elk). the 280AI has almost the exact same performance as a 7mm Rem Mag which is IMHO about the best all around factory chambering out there. I hope this is helpful.

Steve

[shooter115]

just ran some numbers, comparing the 308 with a 168vld @ 2600fps and the 105vld @ 3300 both with 10mph 90* crosswind at 1000yds.

308 has 107.5" drift and retains 506ft/lbs of energy

243ai has 64.2" of drift and retains 670ft/lbs of energy.

With a factory barrel standard 243 i'd expect to be closer to the 3150fps range but that would still be a significant improvement.

The trouble with your logic here is most factory .243 barrels don't have a fast enogh twist rate to stabilize the 105gr and heavier bullets.

[MaryB]

You might have missed that I am disabled and will have to be on a 4 wheeler most of the time... nephew is military and if he gets moved (big chance if Syria blows up) the hunt will be off. MT elk are often longer range though.

I guess I will be a little contrary here. Most of what folks are saying sounds like good advice, but I may be reading something else in your question.

For hitting long range targets (over 500 yards) you can do that with pretty much any quality rifle- the cartridge will not make much difference, other than how accurate your wind reading and ranging have to be.

For killing a moose, that depends. Firstly, anyone who deliberately plans on shooting a moose at 500 yards should take a serious look at themself. I would think (from experience) that most moose kills are under 100 yards.

A moose is big and pretty phlegmatic, while eskimos shoot them in the head with good results with .223's, (of course its at ranges of feet...) most hunters use some stripe of magnum (usually because they are big and wherever there are moose up there, there are also bears.) A .308/.30-06 will do just fine, but probably not at 500+ yards. They are also quite big, so range estimation is really goofy until you have seen a lot of them up close. Last time I hunted them, I was using a .330 Dakota (but I was also hunting Brown Bear as well), another guy had a .300 WBY, a third had a 7 Mag, and one had a .30-06. We all killed moose at under 150 yards. I was the only one who had bullets shoot through the animals. The guides had .300 Mag, another .330 Dakota, and an 8mm Mag.

If you are looking for a cartridge that will work well for long range shooting and be good for killing big game at more reasonable distances, then get a .308. The long range match bullets will shoot well at distance and have good BC's. A good heavy game bullet (like a 180 partition) will not have that good of a BC, so it will not shoot all that flat or buck the wind real well. You need to use the right tool for the job. The .308 uses less powder (and thus has less recoil) than the 06, and the brass is (usually) cheaper.

If you really intend to bust a moose at 600-800 yards, the smallest gun I would look at would be a .338 Mag. Be aware that most ( I read that a relative is taking you but...) guides up there state if you hit the animal you are done, (as I recall in AK's game laws it says wounding an animal is the use of your tag... I think Nugent got busted for this a year or two ago...)

[Slayer_MN1]

just ran some numbers, comparing the 308 with a 168vld @ 2600fps and the 105vld @ 3300 both with 10mph 90* crosswind at 1000yds.

308 has 107.5" drift and retains 506ft/lbs of energy

243ai has 64.2" of drift and retains 670ft/lbs of energy.

With a factory barrel standard 243 i'd expect to be closer to the 3150fps range but that would still be a significant improvement.

The trouble with your logic here is most factory .243 barrels don't have a fast enogh twist rate to stabilize the 105gr and heavier bullets.

Both savage and remington which are easily the two most common seen factory offerings in 243 utilize a 1-9" twist rate which has, in my experience worked well for everything up to and including 105gr bullets. You are correct though most others utilize a 1-10" twist which is not fast enough for anything over 95-100gr.

[aht_six]

243 WIN 105VLD 105 GR. 0.532 B.C. 3150fps
Range Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Trajectory -1.5 0 -2.5 -9.4 -21.5 -39.3 -63.7 -95.7 -136.5 -187.3 -249.9
Wind Drift 0 0.5 2.2 4.9 9 14.5 21.5 30.3 41 53.7 68.8

308 168VLD 2600 168 GR. 0.473 B.C.
Range Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Trajectory -1.5 0 -4.5 -15.9 -35.4 -64.5 -104.8 -158.6 -228.1 -316.5 -427.1
Wind Drift 0 0.8 3.2 7.4 13.6 22.1 33.2 47 63.9 84 107.5....

I think your data is quite misleading. 3150 fps with a 105 grain bullet is optimistic for a Wildcat .243 Ackley Improved, you would be doing well to achieve 3000 fps with a standard .243 Winchester. While 2600 fps for a .308 Winchester is on the low side, 2750 fps with a 168 grain bullet is common.

[Erud]

Ballistically, the .243 Rem beats the pants off the .308 with similar-purposed bullets - hunting vs hunting or target vs target. 500 yards is really not much of a challenge for either of the two, but you'd better be an extremely competent shooter if you plan on shooting animals at those distances. The average hunter does not meet that requirement. As Rip noted above, you probably don't need to be terribly concerned with barrel life, as the average shooter/hunter will never come close to burning out a barrel, regardless of chambering.

[Slayer_MN1]

I think your data is quite misleading. 3150 fps with a 105 grain bullet is optimistic for a Wildcat .243 Ackley Improved, you would be doing well to achieve 3000 fps with a standard .243 Winchester. While 2600 fps for a .308 Winchester is on the low side, 2750 fps with a 168 grain bullet is common.

Have you ever loaded for a 243? If so what was your powder of choice? Bullet?

For myself, in MY 26" Rem 700 with standard SAAMI spec chamber, 3150fps is just below the max as far as pressure goes. This rifle likes the 105gr A-Max on top of 46.5gr RL-25. Of course your mileage may vary so always work up your own load in your own rifle. Heck 3000 is nearly achievable in my little 20" model 7..

As for the 168 at 2600 mentioned above, I do not doubt 2750 as being achievable, I was just using a generic figure off of some federal 168gr match ammo as I do not shoot match bullets in my 308. Even with the 168 moving 2750fps you are sill dropping 374 inches at 1k.

If anyone else would like to discredit my real-world data, Please bring some of YOUR OWN to do it with

[farmerj]

And we're done with this topic now....

OP, Good luck finding something that'll work for you......