Big trouble with the Precision Delta group buy

[Mauser98]

Can't we go to small claims court as an option as well? Although for my lost $372 I'm not sure it's worth the effort - except for the principle of the matter.

While I am deeply aggravated, I don't think this will solve anything. Myself, I'm out $279, and the cost for me to take off work, travel, and lodging, would exceed that total, so I'd be out more. Jim surely doesn't need more legal/court costs to add to this headache, and I'm fairly certain it would just drag out any repayment he says he is working on.

Another possibility for Jim, if you are sincerely going to try to repay people, and you have firearms you wish not to sell to fund the quick repayment of GB members (sentimental reasons, etc.), I would gladly accept a firearm as collateral. I have secure storage, and would hold it till I'm repaid. I'd even not shoot it. I guess it would be hard to trust someone to do this, but at least it shows you are serious about rectifying the situation. You don't have anything to go on but my word, but I also trusted in you to handle my money.

[Seismic Sam]

I'm not sure what a judgement from small claims court would benefit anyone at this point, considering all you would get would be a piece of paper saying Jim was in the wrong, and we already know that, and what good would it do to have some judge agree with you?? I know it wouldn't brighten my day in any way.

In the meantime, we are still in free fall with this mess, and have yet to hit bottom. I have learned that the quantities of bullets at PD are from Group Buy #2, and the people at PD can find NO PRIOR ORDER for GB #1 from Jim Roberts or any deliveries to his address under another name. As such, we don't know WTF is up with GB1, or where the bullets came from. Did he have a straw buyer? Did he get bullets from somewhere else and deliver to a few people to make it look like the deal was working?? I have no answers yet, may get some at some point in the future possibly, but all I can do is keep collecting names and quantities because those are hard facts that can be recorded, tabulated, and maybe used to sort out this ever expanding puzzle. In the meantime, if you know of other people who were involved in this who may not have read this thread yet, they need to PM me with their bucket number and how much money they may be out or if they actually got product, and whether it was from GB1 or GB2.

And quite frankly, it isn't going to do us a lot of good to discuss Jim any further here in light of the above, and I think we can all make up our own minds without having to hash it over much more. I know I sure as hell don't want to talk or read about him any more, so let's try to make an effort to keep that down. More updates will come as I get more data and PM's from people.

[MaryB]

I know Jim reloads for a few people, the powder buys may have been to make a little extra coin. Same for the Mag buy, maybe make it easier to sell if you have a few accessories. Rest of it is a who knows. But to prejudge not knowing the entire situation and without asking the person involved is wrong.

Sorry to disagree with you Oldman, but Jim has done nothing up to this point to deserve sympathy from me. IF, however, Jim would have been an upstanding guy, stuck between a rock and a hard spot, came clean the moment he knew the hammer was coming down, I would probably have GIVEN him money to help with his legal costs, and to help him out through the hard times to come. I have seen this board come together recently and do some really great things for other members in need, and I believe that the same would have happened for Jim. Part of the First Group Buy is actually an example, as a few people backed out, and people like myself and Sam bought up the remaining stock to prevent Jim from having overdraft fee's and what not. I'm not that concerned about the money I'm out, more will come.

What has me upset is that I've been ignored by Jim for a couple of months. I've left him 2 voicemail's, 1 email to his gmail account, and a PM or 2 from this board. I chalked it up to the excuses about Precision Delta, and the recovery from surgery. Once I found about out from my co-worker that PD orders were shipping relatively fast did I get concerned and start looking into things.

Now, once I was being ignored, I figure that is when the hammer fell on Jim's accounts. Since then, Jim has made the following posts:

Talking about hiring a guide essentially.
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=49137&p=506237#p506237

Wanting to buy brass
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49103&p=505841#p505841

Heading over to Ammocraft to buy powder, and bought a pound of RL-19
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=49020&p=505839#p505839

Buying mags for a Glock (shudder), title claims "Found"
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49024&p=505379#p505379

Planning road trips to buy powder and visit people
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49024&p=505379#p505379

Has powder to trade
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=48861&p=504327#p504327

Went to Ahlman's
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=48827&p=504234#p504234

Not exactly the activities of a person without a dime to spare. I quit searching for more, it irritates me and I think the point is made.

So, how exactly am I supposed to take this? Even in Jim's post regarding this, he's hiding behind PM's, texts, and email's to other members, instead of posting DIRECTLY to the forum. Not until he was outed, did he finally admit there was an issue. There is still more going on here than he is telling us, and I think the entire forum membership deserves a full and thorough explanation, with as much detail to determine where each group buy stands.

I ask you Oldman, if you and Jim are as good as friends as both of you talk about here, how long have you known about this? And, if you have known for a while, why have you not informed the membership?

I also ask you to reverse the roll you asked of us, and look at it from the side of the people who are out. How would you respond to the lies and deceit Jim has given all of us?

I do hope Jim is NOT banned from the board. He needs to be able to update people with the details of this debacle. When Wildfan was banned, I saw FJ540 relaying quite a bit, and I'm sure that had its own set of problems.

Sam, in looking back at the posts, in the GB1, Jim claimed an order of 50K bullets, and I think I remember reading the total was around $4700, and in GB2 24K, but I don't recall the dollars.


Jim, don't worry about paying me back. I'll toss this into the learning pile, as I need to move on.

[xd ED]

I know Jim reloads for a few people, the powder buys may have been to make a little extra coin. Same for the Mag buy, maybe make it easier to sell if you have a few accessories. Rest of it is a who knows. But to prejudge not knowing the entire situation and without asking the person involved is wrong.

Are you suggesting that along with everything else discussed in this thread, the guy is selling ammo he reloads?

I hope things get right for Jim and all involved.

[Seismic Sam]

I know Jim reloads for a few people, the powder buys may have been to make a little extra coin. Same for the Mag buy, maybe make it easier to sell if you have a few accessories. Rest of it is a who knows. But to prejudge not knowing the entire situation and without asking the person involved is wrong.

Mary: Your very simplistic and niaeve pronouncement is based on the fundamental assumption that the person involved will be honest and forthcoming and give you the real story. That bus left the station MONTHS ago, and since then the station has been demolished and paved over for a strip mall, and the bus ain't never coming back.

[grimbeaver]

I don't think small claims court would get you anything other then headaches on both sides. The gov will make sure they that get any money they want before you see any. And since that would document the debt owed and you caused him pain by taking him to small claims court I'm sure if he filed for bankruptcy you would be one of the first debts he would try and discharge.

[MarkL]

I jumped in the bailout request to pick up 3000 9mm 115gr fmj.

I received a check from Jim this week for half of what's owed, I hope that he follows up on his promise and refunds the balance and to the rest of the involved parties.

Jim coming forward right away would have been a better option. Refunding the monies asap via whatever means such as selling off assets etc would go a lot further than taking x number of months to repay.

[ZardozCZ]

Bucket #3

I ordered the following:

B-9-124-JHP
B-45-230-FMJ
B-45-185-LHP
B-9-124-FMJ

1000 of each

And paid Jim in cash ...
"Your Total for your order is $417.00 and I will need the funds by June 30, 2013 to put into my debit accoount. I need to make sure the funds are covered when they ship because that's when they charge my card, and I don't want any problems getting our order or any bounce charges from my bank. Your total reflects the $4.00 per 1000 discount we received for ordering more than 10,000.
Thank you and I look forward to meeting each of you,
Jim Roberts"

I've asked Jim only a few time about what's up and by the time he was heading in for surgery I figured not all as it was portrayed to be. Like others I gave him the benefit of the doubt and even offered to help with some lighting issues he has since he's not ladder ready shall we say. To find I'm out that much really is a big disappointment. He seemed to be a better person than that.

I have not read more than the first few posts as I'm taking a break from work but wanted to add to the bucket as I may not get back here in a few days. I'll try to make it sooner and catch up on all the posts.

It's a shame that Jim has screwed himself more than anyone else. This whole community will never forget this episode, and that will affect him for a very long time if he doesn't hurry and make good as he obliged himself to.

[ZardozCZ]

I know Jim reloads for a few people, the powder buys may have been to make a little extra coin. Same for the Mag buy, maybe make it easier to sell if you have a few accessories. Rest of it is a who knows. But to prejudge not knowing the entire situation and without asking the person involved is wrong.

Are you suggesting that along with everything else discussed in this thread, the guy is selling ammo he reloads?

I hope things get right for Jim and all involved.

Jim has told me so, but I'm not sure what to believe of him just now... trust has been destroyed. A simple timely confession would have prevented much damage, and I'd likely done what I could to help. I believe(d) Jim is a good guy, but I'm putting that on hold to see how he behaves. It's all in the decisions he makes. I hope he makes good ones.

[Eleanor08]

I would say that his continued silence on this matter is all the answers we need.

[LePetomane]

I do not know anyone on this forum personally but all of seem like pretty decent folks. I don't have any involvement in this unfortunate situation.

I am curious as to why those invested in this are permitted to air their grievances and dirty laundry on this forum.

[Rodentman]

I think there are legitimate concerns that can be discussed here. I see no point in bashing Jim personally, as that isn't helpful, but aside from that I don't see how this is "dirty laundry." It's a forum where people communicate.

[MaryB]

Not that he sells, but he does prep and sell brass, from what I know from a chat his reloads go to family and friends(and if they want to kick in a little cash...).

I know Jim reloads for a few people, the powder buys may have been to make a little extra coin. Same for the Mag buy, maybe make it easier to sell if you have a few accessories. Rest of it is a who knows. But to prejudge not knowing the entire situation and without asking the person involved is wrong.

Are you suggesting that along with everything else discussed in this thread, the guy is selling ammo he reloads?

I hope things get right for Jim and all involved.

[MaryB]

I highly doubt Jim has the physical assets to pay off much of this. As far as not posting there are some reasons to that. He is trying, he admits he screwed up, people make mistakes in their lives that can haunt them. Not defending him but I also do not believe in kicking someone when they are down, it has no purpose. Constructive suggestions to maybe speed this up make sense. Even if it is a suggestion that won't work. Someone may hit on something that will.

[mrp]

I also do not believe in licking someone when they are down

100% of puppies surveyed disagree with you.