.223/5.56 defensive ammo

[Holland&Holland]

We have had many threads before on defensive handgun ammo but I can not recall a good thread on what ammo people are preferring in their ARs for defensive purposes? Both for home defense and for the more prepper shtf scenario.

[farmerj]

Whatever is best suited for your rifle or you can get your hands on.

[Holland&Holland]

Whatever is best suited for your rifle or you can get your hands on.

I guess I was going for a bit more of a ballistics debate on this topic

Basically my reasoning is thus, while typical FMJ loadings are obviously workable as is evidenced by our military, it is not like most would recommend carrying ball in your carry gun (I know, some would but most would recommend a JHP of some flavor). Obviously there are also many flavors of what would seem to be marketed as more defensive ammo but the projectile is often a varmint bullet. Designed of course for violent expansion and really little penetration. While I am not proposing the average attacker or home invader is as tough as many of the animals we hunt, I would contend that trusting ones life to a projectile intended for prairie dogs seems a bit on the other extreme as well. In the handgun realm of course there is much thought put into the FBI tests as it pertains to defeating barriers, it would seem that there should be similar investigation into the right balance between tough enough and yet good expansion as it pertains to AR food. Thoughts?

[farmerj]

I like the results people see on theboxotruth website.

I would say it really depends on how your gun is set up. Twist rates and all. More for bullet weight. HP, match or varmit bullets being low on the preferred list for just the reason you stated, violent distruction of the bullet. Otherwise, seriously, what I can get ahold of considering current market trends. Preference to fmj. Again, theboxothruth sheds the best light on that.

[Mn01r6]

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... _FAQ/#.223

Pretty much what I go by when selecting all ammo.

[jgalt]

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... _FAQ/#.223

Check out the info at the above link. I did a bunch of research a few years back before settling on my own choice of ammo, and this post (the whole thing, not just the .223 section) seemed to be one of, if not the most referenced by other articles out there. It is also clearly written & easy to understand which, for me at least, made it persuasive as well.

ETA: Looks like Mn01r6 just barely beat me to the punch...

[UnaStamus]

What you choose breaks down to whether it's out of an SBR or 16" or longer carbine, and which twist rate you have. Rifle bullets for the most part will perform well a CQB ranges across the board regardless of velocities, since almost all barrels will shoot a bullet fast enough to function in CQB. There are extremes in the 7"-9" range for .223/5.56 where it becomes more questionable with some rounds, but those lengths are terrible for .223/5.56 in general. The goal is to have a caliber that adheres to FBI ballistic performance standards with 12-18" of penetration. The link above from DocGKR is excellent and details a lot of good ammunition.
There are three bullet categories that you can look at for home defense/personal protection: Barrier Blind, Urban and OTM/Match. For the sake of this post not getting ridiculously long, I'll keep it to the .223/5.56 realm.

Barrier Blind is a bullet that can travel through an intermediate or hard barrier and still perform (expand and penetrate) in the target just like when it does not. It will also effectively penetrate through the barrier without losing significant mass. These are typically bonded JSP and monolithic copper solid HPs (like the TSX).
Urban loads typically comprise of a HP, BTHP, JSP or Ballistic Tip design. Urban refers to the bullets being suitable in high-traffic/high-population areas where there is a concern to eliminate any chance of over penetration. The problem is that many urban loads under-penetrate and will not go deep enough into a cavity to reach vitals. There are several LE incidents where urban loads failed, and most of those involved Hornady TAP Urban. Urban loads are generally varmint hunting bullets by design. Federal TRU is by far the best company to go with for Urban loads, and you should only look at the T223E and T223F loads.
OTM/Match loads are either OTM or BTHP, or else a tipped BT bullet. These work exceptionally well in various platforms, and tend to work well in SBRs.

Without repeating what's on the link, I'll give you a couple of alternative/field expedient options:

For barrier blind loads, finding the LE/duty ammunition is going to get great results. If you want to find some at your local gun shop and they typically don't carry LE/duty ammunition, look for the following hunting ammo:
Federal Fusion 62gr (same bullet as the Federal Tactical LE223T3 and XM556FBIT3 loads)
Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded 62gr PSP
Anything with a 45gr, 55gr or 70gr Barnes TSX

For Urban loads, don't use anything that isn't LE/Duty designed. They will have very poor performance. For OTM loads, use companies that use quality bullets. Do not rely on lower grade companies like Prvi Partisan, HSM or BVAC, as they are inconsistent with quality and do not always use quality bullets.

There are also frangible and RRLP bullets, which are terrible. They typically perform like FMJs and zip right through without disintegrating. They are a very poor choice for HD/self defense.

[jshuberg]

I decided on Prvi Partizan 75gr BTHP Match ammo. It performs similar to Hornady TAP, and has excellent terminal ballistics. It's also cheaper than a lot of other comparable ammo. Below is my best 3 round group at 100M from a 16" Daniel Defense M4V1 using a sandbag:



Terminal Ballistics as provided by Dr. G.K. Roberts:

Privi Partizan 75 gr OTM

Velocity: 2468 fps from a 16" 1:7” twist barrel
penetration in bare ballistic gel: 12.6"
neck length: 0.8”
maximum temporary cavity: 3.2” at a depth of 4.7”
recovered diameter: 0.36”
recovered length: 0.15”
recovered weight: 30.1gr
percentage of fragmentation: 60%

Note that these measurements were from a 2007 lot, and in 2008 Prvi increased the velocity of this load, and has been chrono'd at 2527 fps from a 16" 1:7" twist barrel.

I've fired thousands of these rounds, and have never found any issues with consistency or quality. They function flawlessly from my rifles, SBRs and machinegun.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php ... BTHP-Match

[Holland&Holland]

What you choose breaks down to whether it's out of an SBR or 16" or longer carbine, and which twist rate you have. Rifle bullets for the most part will perform well a CQB ranges across the board regardless of velocities, since almost all barrels will shoot a bullet fast enough to function in CQB. There are extremes in the 7"-9" range for .223/5.56 where it becomes more questionable with some rounds, but those lengths are terrible for .223/5.56 in general. The goal is to have a caliber that adheres to FBI ballistic performance standards with 12-18" of penetration. The link above from DocGKR is excellent and details a lot of good ammunition.
There are three bullet categories that you can look at for home defense/personal protection: Barrier Blind, Urban and OTM/Match. For the sake of this post not getting ridiculously long, I'll keep it to the .223/5.56 realm.

Barrier Blind is a bullet that can travel through an intermediate or hard barrier and still perform (expand and penetrate) in the target just like when it does not. It will also effectively penetrate through the barrier without losing significant mass. These are typically bonded JSP and monolithic copper solid HPs (like the TSX).
Urban loads typically comprise of a HP, BTHP, JSP or Ballistic Tip design. Urban refers to the bullets being suitable in high-traffic/high-population areas where there is a concern to eliminate any chance of over penetration. The problem is that many urban loads under-penetrate and will not go deep enough into a cavity to reach vitals. There are several LE incidents where urban loads failed, and most of those involved Hornady TAP Urban. Urban loads are generally varmint hunting bullets by design. Federal TRU is by far the best company to go with for Urban loads, and you should only look at the T223E and T223F loads.
OTM/Match loads are either OTM or BTHP, or else a tipped BT bullet. These work exceptionally well in various platforms, and tend to work well in SBRs.

Without repeating what's on the link, I'll give you a couple of alternative/field expedient options:

For barrier blind loads, finding the LE/duty ammunition is going to get great results. If you want to find some at your local gun shop and they typically don't carry LE/duty ammunition, look for the following hunting ammo:
Federal Fusion 62gr (same bullet as the Federal Tactical LE223T3 and XM556FBIT3 loads)
Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded 62gr PSP
Anything with a 45gr, 55gr or 70gr Barnes TSX

For Urban loads, don't use anything that isn't LE/Duty designed. They will have very poor performance. For OTM loads, use companies that use quality bullets. Do not rely on lower grade companies like Prvi Partisan, HSM or BVAC, as they are inconsistent with quality and do not always use quality bullets.

There are also frangible and RRLP bullets, which are terrible. They typically perform like FMJs and zip right through without disintegrating. They are a very poor choice for HD/self defense.

Interested to hear your recommendation on appropriate SBR ammo for home defense where over penetration is a concern, meaning inside the dwelling. For discussion sake, lets say 11.5 1in7 twist.

[smurfman]

I keep a couple magazines of Federal Bear Claws or Nosler Partitions on hand for use in a Bushmaster Patrolman. In my rifle they strike close enough to each other at defensive ranges so I don't worry about which mag I grab.

I used to leave one of these in the AR when I kept it for home use but I now use something different for that purpose. The AR is kept handy to use on other pests and I use other rounds for that.

[10-32 Solutions]

It comes down to your budget and if you think you'll need a barrier blind cartridge or not. Barrier blind give improved penetration through, well, barriers, but also run the risk of penetrating more in structures and paying $1+ per shot. If you're looking at home defense, a 55 grain soft point will penetrate less through other interior walls than handgun bullets and are available at reasonable costs. There is also nothing wrong with the 55 grain FMJ that's so common.

Doc Gary Roberts has had some good tests on various calibers and loads along with armor for larger agencies in California. He has some scientific studies that have backed some of this up. However, if you're bound and determined to get one of the top actual performers, Speer Gold Dots in 64 grain and 55 gr have not been bad at all.

Personally, I don't worry about whether this round fragments, or that round tumbles. I know what it takes to break the internal workings of a person, and I'm personally going to keep shooting as many as are needed until that point is reached and the threat has stopped. People have survived multiple gunshots of many caliber or bullet types, and there is no magic one-shot stopper. But the round that best fits your budget. What I would avoid, however, are the steel cased ones like the Silver Bear, simply for the reason that they have not had as consistent of velocities, in my experience, and are definitely lower powered. I actually had Silver Bear issued at one point before I was able to do some educating, and I'm sad to say another agency around me has the same ammunition in a squad.

[10-32 Solutions]

[quote="Holland&Holland]
Interested to hear your recommendation on appropriate SBR ammo for home defense where over penetration is a concern, meaning inside the dwelling. For discussion sake, lets say 11.5 1in7 twist.[/quote]

I have a 10.5 M16/Mk18 sitting next to me in my home office, which is a 1/7 twist. The magazine holds Black Hills 55gr SP's, one that DrGKR has recommended from his tests which is also what I use for the majority of the rest of my magazines. Velocities in less than 14 inch barreled weapons do perform differently, but in the close confines of a structure, I don't think it's really going to be noticeable by the bad guy...

[captnviper]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I have used this as my reference.

[jgalt]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I have used this as my reference.

My favorite bit from that article - in the shotgun section, referring to recommended loads for a 10 gauge:

Yow. Load your 10 gauge with whatever the hell you want.

[10-32 Solutions]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I have used this as my reference.

Some of his sources he is basing everything on have been found to have had questionable research methods as well as results, and are not considered to be reliable information any longer (Sanow/Marshall).

I am also not sure where to start, other than to say I would follow very little of the information in that blog. There are so many statements made that are false, obsolete, not based on reality, and completely show a lack of understanding of terminal ballistics and dynamics of deadly force encounters that they can really get someone in trouble.