A funny feeling...

[mmcnx2]

I shoot at Bills 2-3 times a week. Assertions that people uncase on the rear bench and sweep the line 3-4 times per visit is complete BS. It does happen occasionally, but nowhere near as frequently as some report. It's at it's worst before hunting season. Hunters are about the most unsafe group I've seen at any range, especially the old timers that think they know everything about firearms.

Most of the time it's someone uncasing a rifle, and the keep the muzzle elevated. Most people who uncase pistols behind the line also walk their guns either muzzle up or muzzle down. Only on very rare occasions have I seen someone actually sweep the line. It happens at every public range. It shouldn't, but some people just don't understand the range rules.

If I see someone uncasing behind the line, I let them know they're violating safety rules. Only on one occasion several years ago did someone blow me off, and he swept me again when changing to a different pistol. After the second time I told him that the next time his muzzle sweeps anyone, mine is coming out aimed directly at his chest with my finger on the trigger as I now consider him to be a threat. He looked at me for a couple seconds, packed his gear and left. Hopefully he sold all his firearms gear and started collecting stamps or something.

I'm not sure when you are shooting or which location. But I typically go on a Sat or Sun and am there when they open. Circle pine seems better than Robinsdale but the last two times I was at Robinsdale I got sweep at least twice each time with a pistol. Mostly young guys, not to stereo type but asians also seem to break the rule more than others. I just cut Bills out of list, there are better and closer places. Seems a nicer class of folks at the rogers or forest lake ranges. In addition as a reloaded Robinsdale sucks with the brass pit.

[unit44justin]

I have had the pleasure of seeing Roger chew a few people out as well. I have also been in the same position as you Rodentman, I've found that the couple times I have had to remind people of the range rules, they have been grateful that someone gave them a reminder. I take a little different approach though. I politely tell them that Roger and staff don't appreciate firearms behind the line, and that Roger is not afraid to come out and embarrass them in front of everyone for not following the range rules. People don't like to have their pride stepped on in front of others, and will probably adjust their behavior before that happens.

[Deputyhiro]

The only time I have ever shot at a range was when I took my PTC test. Otherwise, its out the back door. Although, I did have a squirrel give me the stink eye one time.....

[yukonjasper]

I have always thought that posting the rules and explaining the rules to everyone - EVERYONE - to make sure they understand - even make sure they watch a 3-4 minute video of what the correct procedures would be worth the time. If you put it on a monitor and ran it in a loop, people would watch it while they waited for their lane. The mistakes are due to ignorance - why not educate to eliminate the issues. Even if the RO made everyone read the rules back to him out loud so the RO could add emphasis and answer questions.

Understanding that you shouldn't have to handhold people, but a slip up from the lowest common denominator is potentially deadly. The problem lies in people not clearly understanding the rules and only learning once they have violated them - if they are lucky someone politely reminds and educates them - if they are unlucky, someone jumps down their throat, maybe threatens them - if they are really unlucky they have an AD/ND and someone gets hurt.

You have to realize that, for the most part, the folks on this board are familiar and comfortable with being on a range and know the rules forwards and backwards, but, as was mentioned earlier, there are a lot of first time shooters that need to be brought up to speed. You can either do that effectively and thoughtfully and add another person to the Shooting sports community and let the sport grow or you can come down on that person like an asshat and scare them away or worse yet give them the impression that gun owners are an emotionally unstable bunch of jerks who love to belittle people.

Again, you shouldn't have to coddle people, but the reality is that we live in a society in which that is a reality. Its not going away and it will only get worse.

[mmcnx2]

I have always thought that posting the rules and explaining the rules to everyone - EVERYONE - to make sure they understand - even make sure they watch a 3-4 minute video of what the correct procedures would be worth the time. If you put it on a monitor and ran it in a loop, people would watch it while they waited for their lane. The mistakes are due to ignorance - why not educate to eliminate the issues. Even if the RO made everyone read the rules back to him out loud so the RO could add emphasis and answer questions.

Understanding that you shouldn't have to handhold people, but a slip up from the lowest common denominator is potentially deadly. The problem lies in people not clearly understanding the rules and only learning once they have violated them - if they are lucky someone politely reminds and educates them - if they are unlucky, someone jumps down their throat, maybe threatens them - if they are really unlucky they have an AD/ND and someone gets hurt.

You have to realize that, for the most part, the folks on this board are familiar and comfortable with being on a range and know the rules forwards and backwards, but, as was mentioned earlier, there are a lot of first time shooters that need to be brought up to speed. You can either do that effectively and thoughtfully and add another person to the Shooting sports community and let the sport grow or you can come down on that person like an asshat and scare them away or worse yet give them the impression that gun owners are an emotionally unstable bunch of jerks who love to belittle people.

Again, you shouldn't have to coddle people, but the reality is that we live in a society in which that is a reality. Its not going away and it will only get worse.

I understand you view and if we were talking about braiding hair I think folks would be kind, loving and informational. However we are talking about a potentially loaded gun being pointed at you, polite does not enter my head, self preservation does. If I see someone about to make a mistake I'm a nice guy and more then willing to step in and offer guidance, if someone proactively asks for help I'll be the kindest educator you'll find. If however these peoples are newbies and don't know the rules then they need to rally up enough brain cells to ask for help. Instead when they come the range and act like Mr. Knowitall then they are going to get a much harsher reaction. My original observation is that there tends to more of the latter at Bill's than at other ranges.

[XDM45]

Go to Bills in Robinsdale, you can get that feeling 3-4 times a visit. It is why I don't go there anymore.

That along with the air quality which sucks and (look for the old post on here), but there's an image of two loaded fully automatic firearms sitting on a shelf BEHIND the firing line. That did it for me....along with the regular idiocy I saw when I did shoot at Bill's. I gave up admonishing people or trying to teach them. Let the future Darwin Award winners be. I would just leave. You can't fix stupid.

As for as the worst to best places to shoot at, I see it in this order:

(Worst) - Any public range that rents firearms. You get the rent-a=boom-stick crowd there. 'nuff said. Think Bill's.
- Any public range which does NOT rent firearms. Think BPR.
- Any gun club which allows the public )Think OGC)
- Any gun club that is members only. No public allowed.
- Private land owned by someone else that you use with permission (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)
- Private land you own (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)

The bold is where I did 90% of my shooting; but that's ONLY because I didn't have my own land or knew of private land I could use with permission, otherwise, I would. In Winter time, I used BPR, so that was the remaining 10%, but that'd be only 1-=3 trips during the entire Winter season.

[Seismic Sam]

Go to Bills in Robinsdale, you can get that feeling 3-4 times a visit. It is why I don't go there anymore.

That along with the air quality which sucks and (look for the old post on here), but there's an image of two loaded fully automatic firearms sitting on a shelf BEHIND the firing line. That did it for me....along with the regular idiocy I saw when I did shoot at Bill's. I gave up admonishing people or trying to teach them. Let the future Darwin Award winners be. I would just leave. You can't fix stupid.

As for as the worst to best places to shoot at, I see it in this order:

(Worst) - Any public range that rents firearms. You get the rent-a=boom-stick crowd there. 'nuff said. Think Bill's.
- Any public range which does NOT rent firearms. Think BPR.
- Any gun club which allows the public )Think OGC)
- Any gun club that is members only. No public allowed.
- Private land owned by someone else that you use with permission (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)
- Private land you own (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)

The bold is where I did 90% of my shooting; but that's ONLY because I didn't have my own land or knew of private land I could use with permission, otherwise, I would. In Winter time, I used BPR, so that was the remaining 10%, but that'd be only 1-=3 trips during the entire Winter season.

I take exception to your characterization of OGC as a place where this can happen, as if we have public shooting, we have sufficient RSO's for a ratio of at MOST 1 RSO to 4 people. If you take a gun out of a case sideways, much less even START to point a loaded gun in any other direction but straight downrange, the RSO's are going to be on you like ugly on a cheap suit. The least you will get is a strong talking to if the gun is loaded, and most likely will get booted out of there. Same if you uncase a gun behind the line. The RSO's will be on you before you can get the zipper all the way down. If you start bitching about our rules, you're outta there instantly, and if you're still bitching 30 seconds later the lead RSO or the GM is calling the Washington County deputies to escort you off the property. If you wanna check us out and see what you can get away with, be my guest.

Sam Netherly
OGC Director, LRP

[Rodentman]

I have a strong feeling Sam is right about OCG after hearing the orientation. I hope so, since an accident could be tragic for someone and we could lose the range as well.

I will never forget about 40 years ago I was shooting at the Ben Avery Shooting Range north of Phoenix and I broke a rule about gun handling. I got corrected and won't do it again.

Firmness with the rules is required.

[xd ED]

I'm far from an old hand at it, but I've done 4 stints as an RSO at OGC. Only once in several hundred shooters did I have anyone commit a second offense after a first warning, and this was some dude with a evil black shotgun that wouldn't keep the muzzle horizontal and downrange, and trying hard to impress his female companion.
The second time I corrected him, I said once more and he'd have to leave.
I was at least twice his age, and less than 1/2 his size, he got all pissy and said he was going to report me. I pointed out the range office and said- "there you go". He packed up and left. Nothing more became of it.
Every member I've met or observed takes safety, and the responsibilities of being an RO quite seriously.

And speaking of funny feelings, I had one myself this afternoon. Why, I'm not sure, but I found myself sneering at price tags in the handgun displays at Woodbury GM..(which has the worst, most ineffective display of long guns anywhere) Then the gun counter guy hands a prospective customer a pump shotgun, and the dude- about 5' to my right- sweeps me and the entire store while racking the action.
I was the model of self-restraint: Other than my 'you-do-that-again-and-I-might-just-shoot-you' glare. I left the area and the store.

[linksep]

Go to Bills in Robinsdale, you can get that feeling 3-4 times a visit. It is why I don't go there anymore.

Last time I was at Robbinsdale I had Rambo immediately to my left rapid firing 12ga sheet shot; uncasing loading and carrying various firearms from the counter to the line; drawing from the holster (a couple hundred times); and various other rule infractions. The R.O. screamed at him at least 3x but never kicked him out. On my right was a guy being a total D!ck to his wife who obviously didn't want to be there or shoot and he was also uncasing loading and carrying multiple firearms from the counter to the line. Two or three lanes to my left was a group that came in a minute or two after I did, they admitted to essentially zero firearms experience, and rented multiple guns then proceeded to break nearly every range rule with no repercussions except one verbal thrashing from the R.O. before we left.

Finally my GF understands my "no shooting is better than shooing at Robbinsdale" rule.

[linksep]

As for as the worst to best places to shoot at, I see it in this order:

(Worst) - Any public range that rents firearms. You get the rent-a=boom-stick crowd there. 'nuff said. Think Bill's.
- Any public range which does NOT rent firearms. Think BPR.
- Any gun club which allows the public )Think OGC)
- Any gun club that is members only. No public allowed.
- Private land owned by someone else that you use with permission (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)
- Private land you own (and where legally zoned/able to do so.)

I'm far from an expert as I have only shot at 4 public ranges and private land with permission but I have never had a truly bad experience at BPR. The worst thing I can say about BPR is someone a few lanes from me was shooting a freakin' bazooka one time. Even with doubled up hearing protection (plugs and muffs) it was distractingly loud.

To my knowledge I have never been swept at BPR, nor have I encountered an unfriendly, dangerous, or otherwise unpleasant shooter there. I have introduced 3 total newbies to pistol shooting at BPR and coached my girlfriend that had some rifle experience but nearly no pistol experience. None of the newbies are perfect, nor am I, but I keep a close eye on them and so far the worst thing that has happened to me at BPR is an unintentional "double-tap" from trying to stage a double-action trigger (that was me; lesson learned).

[jshuberg]

Last time I was at Robbinsdale I had Rambo immediately to my left rapid firing 12ga sheet shot; uncasing loading and carrying various firearms from the counter to the line; drawing from the holster (a couple hundred times); and various other rule infractions. The R.O. screamed at him at least 3x but never kicked him out.

I call complete and total BS. When exactly did this happen, the day and time? I'll talk to the RO working at the time and ask if they had to "scream at someone at least 3x" for uncasing and loading firearms behind the firing line, and for drawing from the holster hundreds of times.

So exactly how long were you there, witnessing all of these horrendous safety violations without choosing to leave? Apparently you were there long enough to witness someone draw from the holster "hundreds of times", and to see the same person screamed at by the range officer 3 or more times. If you felt you were in an unsafe situation, why didn't you leave? Were you also being held there against your will by the big bad evil RO?

Apparently, your safety wasn't that important to you or you would have left. Either that or your story is complete BS.

[Rodentman]

That bazooka shooter could have been the poor, poor, and much maligned Rodentman with a DE 50.

[Rooster17]

One thing I hate about Bills is that they rent various types of semi-auto rifles and do not offer proper training. I had to clear one gun for a guy because he had two rounds jammed in it. Don't even know how that is possible. I look around and there is no RO in sight. If you rent out any guns there should be a RO o PHYSICALLY on the line at all times. At least thats what I would do if I owned a public range. OGC does a great job of watching the firing line during public hours. ALmost too good sometimes... I had one RO yell at me cuz he didn't realize my Blackhawk was a single action and wanted the cylinder out.

[linksep]

Last time I was at Robbinsdale I had Rambo immediately to my left rapid firing 12ga sheet shot; uncasing loading and carrying various firearms from the counter to the line; drawing from the holster (a couple hundred times); and various other rule infractions. The R.O. screamed at him at least 3x but never kicked him out.

I call complete and total BS. When exactly did this happen, the day and time? I'll talk to the RO working at the time and ask if they had to "scream at someone at least 3x" for uncasing and loading firearms behind the firing line, and for drawing from the holster hundreds of times.

Challenge accepted. It was Saturday February 1st, evening, I believe it was around 6pm as my new firearm showed up that day (I was expecting it to come on Monday the 3rd) and my initial cleaning took longer than I anticipated so I didn't feel I had enough time to go break it in at BPR before they closed as was my original plan when I was notified that my new firearm showed up early. Because I was no longer under a time-crunch I also stopped for dinner on my way to Robbinsdale so 6pm +/- 20 minutes. I was on lane 4 I believe, Rambo was on lane 3, Richard was on lane 5, and the zero experience renters were on lane 1 or 2.

So exactly how long were you there, witnessing all of these horrendous safety violations without choosing to leave?

A whole lot less time than I usually spend at the range. Just long enough to run through 100 break-in rounds in my new gun, and I would guess my girlfriend sent 50-ish rounds through her .22 when I was busy reloading my mags.

Apparently you were there long enough to witness someone draw from the holster "hundreds of times",

Which takes only 4 or 5 minutes if they draw and re-holster 10 times for every round they fire. I was looking for the RO to tell them, but I also didn't want to obviously walk away then come back with the RO to kick the guy out. I have a little rule about not starting poo with random strangers at gun ranges.

and to see the same person screamed at by the range officer 3 or more times.

Which probably happened in less than 20 minutes, and happened for open cases at the table. The RO apparently wasn't watching Rambo closely to see the carrying from the table to the line, or paying attention to the skeet shot patterns in his target, and I have to assume the RO didn't see him drawing from the holster... the RO just noticed open cases on the back table (multiple times).

If you felt you were in an unsafe situation, why didn't you leave?

We did. I kept a very close eye on the people around us and when it got truly dangerous we GTFO.

Were you also being held there against your will by the big bad evil RO?

You're being ridiculous and probably using three argument fallacies there; argument from incredulity, burden of proof, and probably a little bit of ad-hominem.

Apparently, your safety wasn't that important to you or you would have left.

We did leave when it got truly dangerous in my eyes (when the zero experience n00bs started sweeping the line); and again argument fallacy, this one is called a false dilemma.

Either that or your story is complete BS.

This argument fallacy is called denying the antecedent.
I don't know what your problem is, I shared a true and accurate story of the last time (meaning both the most recent time, and the LAST time) I went to Robbinsdale and you jump all over me calling me a liar. You don't know because you weren't shooting on lane 3 at the time. Maybe it was a 1 in 1,000 nights fluke, but either way my girlfriend and I will never be back there. You're free to keep shooting there if you like, in fact, please keep shooting there so there's a better chance of a lane being open at my preferred ranges when I want to shoot. Oh, and have you not been paying attention to this thread or the board in general? I'm not the only person that has ever had an extremely uncomfortable and/or unpleasant trip to Robbinsdale or witnessed repeated and serious violations of the range rules. It would seem the anecdotal evidence supports the description of my experience that I have given.