.223/5.56 defensive ammo

[Mn01r6]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I have used this as my reference.

Some of his sources he is basing everything on have been found to have had questionable research methods as well as results, and are not considered to be reliable information any longer (Sanow/Marshall).

I am also not sure where to start, other than to say I would follow very little of the information in that blog. There are so many statements made that are false, obsolete, not based on reality, and completely show a lack of understanding of terminal ballistics and dynamics of deadly force encounters that they can really get someone in trouble.

The three letters H-S-T do not appear together in that article. That is enough to put it into the "historical" non-current reference material section.

[MaryB]

If a 50 grain ballistic point can take down a coyote I see no problem stopping a person... especially with a center mass shot. It will leave a large hole.

[UnaStamus]

The fact that he used "stopping power" and "knockdown power" should be enough for people to know it had no credibility, since both of those terms are meaningless and have no scientific quantification. Then there are idiotic smacktard comments like "If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons." Absolutely complete garbage.

If a 50 grain ballistic point can take down a coyote I see no problem stopping a person... especially with a center mass shot. It will leave a large hole.

Terminal performance in small animals/varmints is misleading. Most light varmint bullets are known to have very shallow penetration due to their tendency to explosively fragment upon impact. The average coyote ranges between 15-50lbs and that is spread throughout the body. In contrast the average adult male weighs anywhere from 3-8x that and has a thoracic cavity that is exponentially larger, deeper and protected with more dense muscle tissue and thicker bones. Add to that the increase in obesity in our society and add layers of fatty mass over all that. There are numerous documented incidents of Urban loads failing to stop during LE OIS incidents. The main ammo that I recurrently hear about is usually the Hornady TAP V-MAX.
If you shoot someone in the arm, you can likely create a large hole. I've seen some nasty holes in extremeties that were hit with 5.56. However, in the thoracic cavity you're not going to see the same results. In fact, you'll likely see very little external damage from the entry wound, and there likely won't be an exit wound since it won't penetrate deep enough for that.
The reason why we see explosive results from varmints is because of the kinetic energy deposit from the rifle bullet creating a temporary stretch cavity that occupies an area larger than can be contained within the animal. That expansion then forces the tissue to rupture with the energy and it blasts outward instead of rebounding. The stretch cavity overpowers the elastic limits of the tissue. Rifle rounds can do the same thing in humans, but you need larger calibers and heavier bullets to achieve the same effect. The only time you will see truly massive holes from .223/5.56 is when they go through areas that cannot contain the cavitation, like an arm or leg. That cavitation still does damage in the thoracic cavity, but no where near to the extent that you would see in an small animal.

This is why approved ballistic testing methods have established a recognized protocol developed by ballistic experts and trauma specialists using ballistic gelatin, as well as in some circumstances using a specific breed of hog that is controlled. Any bullet can kill, but the idea is that we work in probabilities and we want to put the odds in our own favor as much as possible.

[Holland&Holland]

Good discussion going on.

[captnviper]

The three letters H-S-T do not appear together in that article. That is enough to put it into the "historical" non-current reference material section.[/quote]
What is h-s-t?

[Ironbear]

The three letters H-S-T do not appear together in that article. That is enough to put it into the "historical" non-current reference material section.

What is h-s-t?

I'm guessing...
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=1015

[MaryB]

Ballistic jell tests on the v-max I have seen usually have 5-6 inches of penetration and leave a nasty wound channel. I could see it stopping someone from shock if gut shot.

[10-32 Solutions]

Ballistic jell tests on the v-max I have seen usually have 5-6 inches of penetration and leave a nasty wound channel. I could see it stopping someone from shock if gut shot.

The problem with that is how much time it takes to go into shock. If you're a victim being attacked by a threat, are you going to want to wait the minutes to hours it takes? There are three ways that a threat stops: 1) The Central Nervous System is disrupted (Lights Out) causing incapacitation, 2) Blood pressure has been reduced so that oxygenated blood no longer gets to the brain to allow it to function causing incapacitation, and 3) The threat stops willingly. Only 1&2 are definite, and #3 can decide to get back in the fight if they so wish. The body can lose a lot of blood, and it can even take 2-3 minutes after an artery has been damaged to get the blood pressure to drop low enough to cause incapacitation. I can say from personal experience that a fight that takes even 2-3 minutes will seem like a lifetime when you 're in it, and a lot can happen during that time still where you can lose, badly. So I'm not willing to wait for someone to happen to go into shock.

Another example is hunting big game animals. Ask a deer hunter how far a deer can run before dying if they are hit in the stomach/gut area versus the vital areas of the heart/lungs? It can be miles that they can run and it can be weeks before succumbing to the wounds.
5-6 inches of penetration may seem like enough, but you also have to consider the depth of the human torso, and how that depth changes depending on how the torso is positioned. They rarely are square in front of you, and commonly are at an oblique angle somewhat. FBI ballistic research has determined that 8-12 inches of penetration is what is needed to reliably incapacitate a threat, substantially more than the 5-6 inches that the Vmax provides. Something to also factor in, especially in this region, is the need for people to wear additional layers of clothing to keep warm. 5-6 inches may be one thing in the summer time when the threat is possibly wearing next to nothing for clothes, but what if they are wearing a leather jacket, or a number of various layers?

A good way to look at it is from a first aid standpoint. While various wounds can be serious, and lead to possible death later on, there is usually lots of time, even in the rural areas I am accustomed to, to get them to the hospital. An attacker/threat can still kill a victim with those sorts of injuries. Look at what it takes to treat wounds like gunshots, and you learn very quickly what it takes to break the system the human body needs to function, and THAT'S what you need to stop a threat.

[MaryB]

But a human isn't a deer and the typical meth head is going to freak once he has a hole in his body that is bleeding and run. He isn't going to stick around. and ask for more, and I am not going to be anywhere near them at the time, if needed more shots will follow the first of they don't run. And how many take off at the mere sight of a gun?

[10-32 Solutions]

But a human isn't a deer and the typical meth head is going to freak once he has a hole in his body that is bleeding and run. He isn't going to stick around. and ask for more, and I am not going to be anywhere near them at the time, if needed more shots will follow the first of they don't run. And how many take off at the mere sight of a gun?

With all due respect, you're quite wrong. I use the deer comparison to humans because of the similarity is size. And I've dealt with more meth-heads that have been tweaking than I can count. You cannot guarantee that someone in a substance induced haze will turn and run at the mere sight of a wound. Some will not feel any pain from being shot. Others may see the hole and not care. And still others may already have holes in them that they caused to themselves in an effort to rid them of the bugs they see crawling on their skin. A meth-head tweaking is one of the most dangerous things I've ever had to face, as they were always completely unpredictable. I would not consider any of them typical in their reactions. Last one I dealt with literally had a hole in his chest you could fit two fingers inside. He continued to rip open his skin and muscle with his fingernails, and it was a good couple inches deep. So like I said, you're quite wrong in your belief.

You're not trying to make them run. You're trying to make them cease being a threat. 5-6 inches of penetration with a Vmax bullet cannot guarantee that result because you're not even sure it's reaching anything vital.

[farmerj]

I have personally shot a deer square in the chest head on only to find the wound track follow under the skin up around the ribs and embed itself in the muscle alone the spine half way back. This using a .308 150 gr federal sp hunting round. Perfect extension and weight retention. Length of track was at least 20".

That one shot dropped the deer and it never got up.

I have also tracked a deer for over 2 miles and 4 hours only to have someone else kill it as it crossed a road a mere 200 yards in front of us. Tossing it in a pickup and leaving.
Bright red blood with junks of lung at the beginning.
That was hit with a .338 winmag 250 gr.

Bullet choice, weight and construction won't mean squat if you don't get placement.

[UnaStamus]

But a human isn't a deer and the typical meth head is going to freak once he has a hole in his body that is bleeding and run. He isn't going to stick around. and ask for more, and I am not going to be anywhere near them at the time, if needed more shots will follow the first of they don't run. And how many take off at the mere sight of a gun?

With all due respect, you're quite wrong. I use the deer comparison to humans because of the similarity is size. And I've dealt with more meth-heads that have been tweaking than I can count. You cannot guarantee that someone in a substance induced haze will turn and run at the mere sight of a wound. Some will not feel any pain from being shot. Others may see the hole and not care. And still others may already have holes in them that they caused to themselves in an effort to rid them of the bugs they see crawling on their skin. A meth-head tweaking is one of the most dangerous things I've ever had to face, as they were always completely unpredictable. I would not consider any of them typical in their reactions. Last one I dealt with literally had a hole in his chest you could fit two fingers inside. He continued to rip open his skin and muscle with his fingernails, and it was a good couple inches deep. So like I said, you're quite wrong in your belief.

You're not trying to make them run. You're trying to make them cease being a threat. 5-6 inches of penetration with a Vmax bullet cannot guarantee that result because you're not even sure it's reaching anything vital.

+1
People tweaking on meth have a very high threshold for pain, and in many cases don't feel pain at all. I have gone "hands-on" enough to know this for a fact and can back up everything 10-32 Solutions is saying, because I've seen the same stuff. I've also dealt with people on heroin, opioid narcotic painkillers, PCP, cocaine, bath salts, ecstasy, etc etc. There is no such thing as a psychological stop for someone who is chemically impaired. This includes people who are very drunk.
You can hope for the psychological stop in one hand, and crap in the other and see which one fills up first. The biggest mistake is gauging your belief of an attacker's reaction based on your own thoughts and theories. Instead, you need to look at them realistically based on empirical data. There are stories galore of people being shot more than a dozen times and still fighting. Texas DPS trooper shot a guy 17 times last year with a .45ACP, including THREE TIMES in the HEAD before the guy stopped fighting. If someone can take two head shots from a .45ACP and still keep fighting, someone gut-shot from a varmint round is probably going to be a lot more well-off. Besides that, a person shot in the torso and still alive can still point at you and pull a trigger.
If your intent is to fire one shot and hope that's enough, you've failed before you even started. Mindset is more important than anything else. Waiting for them to run away or realize they're hit is akin to you waiting to be shot. Sights on target, trigger pulls until target disappears from sight picture, follow through and assess, reengage as necessary.

Further, I can guarantee you that 5-6" of penetration into my torso will NOT reach my heart or main arteries unless it squarely hits in my armpit from the oblique, or you shot me from behind. Many people do not fully understand human physiology, and how far set back the heart is inside the diaphragm.

Can you kill someone with a shallow-penetrating fragmenting varmint round? Yes. Is it reliable and effective? No. There is extensive ballistic data from the FBI to confirm this.

What people should pay attention to are the loads that ammunition manufacturers sell for hunting medium and large game. Notice that there has been a push towards controlled expansion and penetration. Hornady Interbond, Hornady Interlock, Hornady SST, Hornady GMX, Federal Fusion, Remington Core-Lokt, Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded, CorBon DPX, Barnes TTSX/TSX, Nosler Partition, etc etc. All of these are billed as ideal hunting loads. None of those companies advertise varmint loads to shoot deer, hogs, sheep, goats, pronghorn, etc. There is a reason why companies advertise fragmenting varmint loads for LE/defense, and it's not because they're recommended and effective on humans, but not other large 150+Lb creatures.