Reloading 10mm... what's yuour fancy?

[deebar]

Oldman , I appreciate your candor , however I have no interest in shooting hot .40's .
The recoil from both my EAA's , one a Witness and the other the Hunter is very minimal so recoil is not an issue . Have shot the so called hot loads but see little to no difference from it's tamer siblings .
Certainly don't want to get hurt but working a load always has an inherent risk to it . Have seen it more than a couple of times over the years with scatter guns but that is the reason for reaching out . I'm ready to do what's reasonable and what to look for and at . Thanks , deebar

[OldmanFCSA]

Oldman , I appreciate your candor , however I have no interest in shooting hot .40's .
The recoil from both my EAA's , one a Witness and the other the Hunter is very minimal so recoil is not an issue . Have shot the so called hot loads but see little to no difference from it's tamer siblings .
Certainly don't want to get hurt but working a load always has an inherent risk to it . Have seen it more than a couple of times over the years with scatter guns but that is the reason for reaching out . I'm ready to do what's reasonable and what to look for and at . Thanks , deebar

First time posting and I have a lot to learn in not only reloading the "Ten" but my .300 RUM as well . Loaded thousands of shot shells and shot many many more , intensely .
Had a .45 in Nam but never shot it and also a Colt Python and only shot it a few times . My gun(s) were a set of 60's in an armored jeep and a 16 as my bailout gun . I want to load as close to max with the ten as I can , and where to get started ? I bought a RCBS starter kit sometime back and actually bought it for the .300 but now after having the ten and demanding the best chance for an excellent round I'm looking at getting it going . I've never had a need for a pistol but now I have 2 tens and a .40 . I ordered 500 rounds of PPU just to start getting comfortable shooting pistols again and maybe having some material to reload with along w/BB DT and some Remington . Coming with the kit is the Speer hand loading book but where do I go for a multitude of loads by different gunners , or does it work that way ?
Guys , I've never tried it but want to succeed . Any help would be appreciated .

The statements BOLDED above by me is what concerned me, and prompted my responses.
IF, ..... you are willing to learn, I can teach you. Send me a scanned copy of your drivers license to: OldmanFCSA@aol.com
This is for identification purposes only, and for your safety (need to lock up the guard dog, if he's not sleeping).

[deebar]

Oldman , Now you're really asking for something I have no idea of . This compuker thing is relatively new to me and this is a system I'm still learning . I'm a long ways from inexperienced and have shot competition for 25 years . Started at 11 and shot for Federal along with Special Services International Trap and Skeet team for the Army . Reloading was not allowed for competition either in my rifle days (Army) or in my scatter gunning days .
I never once thought much about pistols until the last few years even though I've had access to just about anything that went boom . About the only thing I never qualified with was the 1911 and I had no desire to do so . I know technique but have not shot a lot of pistol . As with all shooting technique is # 1 and the only way to win is a lot of shooting and to have "Top Notch" equipment and consistent ammunition . I only have me for competition as I have no desire to incur the cost of traveling and quite honestly a desire to beat anyone else . Been there , done that . Controlled speed is what I'm after and the faster the better for what to me is obvious .

[10-32 Solutions]

Deebar, I'm thinking what they are getting at is the liability that's inherent with anything approaching maximum loadings. No one wants to be in a lawsuit because of info they gave where something blew up, especially if they don't know the person.

With that said, very few 10mm's are good for such high pressure loadings. The hotter you load them, the quicker stuff is going to break, rails crack, etc.

I carried 10mm's for duty purposes for a long time. Still love my 1006, although I don't get to shoot it as often. I don't think I would approach any sort of maximum loads in anything except a Glock 20/20 SF. And even then with caution. Most people I know reload to shoot more often. Which means more stress applied in maximum loads. Guns are going to wear out or break quicker. One such example are the breakages that occurred in the Colt Delta Elite's. If a gun has been designed from the ground up as a 10mm, and not a .45 changed to a 10, then it has potential.

With that said, for what purposes are you wanting such a hot load for? Targets? Hunting? Defense? The challenge of a hand cannon (Not that there's anything wrong with shooting heavier loads, but your purposes helps define what info will be available to you.)?

Looking at your post, if you're looking for speed and such, is there a specific reason you're shooting a 10mm? For duty purposes, I shoot a 9mm, by choice, and have no doubts as to the lethality of my cartridge selection. Other's shoot .45, and it doesn't have to be a 1911. When it comes to handguns and handgun calibers, with all due respect to your age and service, if you're holding on to some past frames of reference, you may be doing yourself a disservice. There have been a great number of changes in the pistol world that include some welcome improvements. The differences of 45 vs 9mm FMJ's and 1911's and M16's carried back in the 70's are different, as some of those issues that you may have experienced have been addressed and improved.

Now, I'm just hypothesizing based on your post, and I don't wish to dissuade you from the 10mm at all, as I love the cartridge too, for different reasons. Just wondering a little bit more about what your ultimate end goal is, so that people can better help you get there.

[deebar]

I'm shooting to get better for a couple of reasons . One is for hunting , mostly deer , the occasional wolf and many cougar . Both have been terrorizing my livestock and just two weeks ago I had a cougar on top of my Jack Russell and his mate was killed this last summer by a bear . I breed and train horse's and need a sidearm . My AR is too cumbersome especially on a young horse so the pistol is what I can use somewhat effectively . The other reason is for protection from two legged critters . My driveway is a 1/2 mile long and cannot see my house from any direction . I've had to draw down on a guy about three years ago looking to break into my place and held him for the sheriff . I've got a .40 that I hit with pretty good but want more power behind it , it's needed . I've got a couple of 10's both EAA's , one the Hunter model with the 6" barrel and the other the 4 1/2" . I don't know much about the EAA's but they're put together pretty well comparing it to some very costly pistols and they just fit me better .
I know there are loads for close combat and those for the 50yd. shot . It's the 50yd. shot I'm after with a 180gr or 200gr bullet .
I don't shoot for fun anymore but shoot a lot with my rifles just to stay sharp and all are reloads for them being built by some one that takes it very serious unfortunately he passed on a year ago and now it's up to me . deebar

[deebar]

1032solutions , I understand perhaps the liability issue and quite honestly never gave it a thought . I'd like to mention one other thing about 'hot'.
Every year I take 4 or 5 horses into the "Gospel Humps" of Idaho for a month and into Montana once in a while . While riding , your chances of a bear encounter
are very close to a 100% deal . Big bears not so much but lots of blacks and the thought of 16 rounds of big pistol bullets is better than one shot , maybe two from a rifle
if any . I've been around a lot of bear and I've seen them do many amazing things and all to often way to close . May write a book on 25 years with bears . I've seen several killed
and have taken a couple myself and even 16rds of 10 could make it real interesting .

[OldmanFCSA]

I killed my last bear at a distance of 3 feet, still have nightmares of it. It was a full charge in the barn at night. 482 pound boar. So I understand your desire for a full load, but I won't teach it. I teach start loads or medium loads dependent on firearm brought to reloading session, if after learning you desire to up the charge, that's your choice with your equipment.

[10-32 Solutions]

1032solutions , I understand perhaps the liability issue and quite honestly never gave it a thought . I'd like to mention one other thing about 'hot'.
Every year I take 4 or 5 horses into the "Gospel Humps" of Idaho for a month and into Montana once in a while . While riding , your chances of a bear encounter
are very close to a 100% deal . Big bears not so much but lots of blacks and the thought of 16 rounds of big pistol bullets is better than one shot , maybe two from a rifle
if any . I've been around a lot of bear and I've seen them do many amazing things and all to often way to close . May write a book on 25 years with bears . I've seen several killed
and have taken a couple myself and even 16rds of 10 could make it real interesting .

And that is pretty much an understandable reason. Black Bear are commonly underestimated. While those loads are going to be good for hunting, I think they would be poor choices for defense and practice though. Black Bear require penetration, more penetration than is ideal for proper terminal ballistics in a human, plus you much more at risk of shooting through your target plus your backstop in a structure. I honestly think I would look at a commercial load for those. My duty loads were the Win 210 gr Silvertips, at the time one of the hotter loads available. They absolutely sucked on any deer I used it on, and I am hypothesizing from my observations that it was that massive overpenetration where the bullet didn't get a chance to do what it was supposed to. To be honest, I'd recommend that load or one of the Double Tap brand. They were the other decent performing loads made at the time, and appear to still be in business with ammunition for exactly your purposes. Now it's not reloading, but I think solves your hunting ammunition issue safer, and more efficiently than working up those hot loads yourself. The cost of trial and error loads would probably get you close to just buying the factory hunting loads anyhow, for as little as they would be shot. For defense and training, which is likely going to be many more rounds fired, you could work up a load that is less stress on you, the gun, as well as more efficient for those purposes, something a little hotter than the 40 S&W loads if you like. The balance between 40 and 10 are really a good place to work with in terms of the penetration that's wanted for terminal performance for defense, and the recoil is more manageable making any training or shooting more efficient as well.

And as for an AR being too cumbersome, well, I've got a 10.5 Mk18 that I can hide lots of places, and I've worked some very tight areas with it. One could be secured to via a decent 2-pt VTAC or Vickers sling to ride very efficiently....

I used to believe as you did that you needed more oomf from the 40 at 50 yards. #1, bullet technology has evolved greatly improving performance, and #2 I was at a training with Larry Vickers where we witnessed a good number of the students able to make hits well past 50 yards, and even out to 100. When it comes to needing more, it's accuracy from a rifle, not more from the bullet. Pistols aren't losing enough velocity to make that sort of difference. So if you have a 40 that you are competent and proficient at, there is nothing wrong with continuing to use that for your defensive stuff. I'm a rural LEO, and I've worked the northwoods areas of my state quite a bit, so I'm pretty familiar with your type of environment and needs. In fact, I live it as well on 300 acres.

[deebar]

10-32 , I've had three charges by bear , all Grizzly's . Fortunately none came closer than about 15 to 20 yds while I had my Rem. 12 loaded for , literally 'big bear' .
As an owner of a commercial fishing business in AK. I had lots of time after fishing periods which allowed me to investigate the next 4 or 5 days . My boats were between 32 and 40 ft long
and gave me the opportunity to motor up the rivers sometimes many miles to sport fish and hunt . Browns and Grizzly's were common while deer hunting and goose hunting
and shots would normally bring them around to clean up a kill . So quick in fact that most the time you'd pull your deer out without dressing it .

A Grizzly will wait in a trail for you while a black will normally run . I've been close enough to blacks that I could have touched them easily . not good , and even had a cub climb my tree almost into my lap while his sibling is in the tree next to me and mom's trying to figure out where I was at the base of the tree I was in . Had no weapons except for a brand new Brackenbury hunting bow I had him build for me and here I was trying to shoot ravens at a dump with nothing but target points . Interesting but turned out as yet another Ak experience . Got 25 yrs of them .

In 87' I was going to take a 10 ft brown that I'd been watching for a couple of weeks but to kill one required the signing of your tag by a licensed guide and that was 10 grand so I went bowhunting in Africa for a month and had a great time and took 8 different animals .

I don't fear a bear I can see , it's the one that's sleeping or hurt or planning a hit on the trail . The weapon you mentioned is foreign to me so I have no idea how quick it is to use when seconds count .

[10-32 Solutions]

I have a healthy respect for bear. While I only have Black Bear here, I've seen maulings, and I used to work an area that was very plentiful with bear and I live where . I'd see them all the time. I hit a young one with my squad one night, and the impact actually stopped my squad in its tracks. So I completely understand your need for a sidearm that protects against them. Those Winchester Silvertips were the equivalent of a 41 Mag, and while still possibly too light for a bear, it was what I carried when I ventured out where they were plentiful.

The AR weapon I mentioned was something I felt you could use for general stuff on horseback that you mentioned you had to do, but I wouldn't use it on a bear. Mk18's are 10.5-in barreled carbines that fall under the SBR/NFA stuff. I am confident the 5.56 it shoots will handle a lot, but my limit is going to be a bear. Reason I mentioned it is that a rifle still beats a pistol anytime for most things, but I am also the type that uses a pistol daily and keeps a carbine close by everyplace as well.

[deebar]

1032 , I'm going to hold off for a little bit as I'm getting a few more reloading items . Just received my EAA Witness back from the gunsmith with a few modifications.
Haven't shot it yet so anxious to try it out and modifying my Witness somewhat .
I've bowhunted for over 50 years and know stealth but having problems pulling my bow back due to both rotators being torn a few years back and now plan on hunting
with my pistol .
I'd like to get with you a bit later once I have my ducks lined up . Thanks , db

[deebar]

HELP!!! A couple of months back I purchased a Witness 4 1/2" 10mm and liked it very much so bought a Witness Hunter 10mm for hunting which has 3 recoil springs and changed it out to the heaviest spring which is super light still . My 4 1/2" was changed out to a Wolff 20# and I'm waiting for another 20# for the Hunter .
My question is , has anyone ever tried adding a partial spring to get a heavier poundage thinking the 20# is still a bit light ? Midway advertises a 22# but when I called Wolff they said that they don't make that poundage for this pistol . Even using light PPU 180gr. loads w/the 20# it throws the brass into the next county .

[Seismic Sam]

Wolff makes a 22# spring for an EAA, and has been for years. In addition, you can get a Sprinco EAA recoil buffer in 10mm if you want, and combine the two. And since you are in such a quest to get to a max 10mm loading, what's the Make and Model number of your chrono?? Hmmmmmm?????

If you want really hot 10mm defense ammo, go to DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore, or Corbon. Corbon specs their loads by pressure and not velociy, and have the pressure barrels to do it, and acually run out lots by pressure rather than velocity.

[Rodentman]

Someday I'm gonna get my 610 cylinder pushed out to accommodate 10mm mag.

[deebar]

Siesmic Sam . You mentioned Wolff but when I called them I was told that they did "not" make this spring . Midway has them back ordered for me and they do advertise them in 22lb . I figured I'd go direct to Wolff to get them sooner and that is when the guy I talked with said they didn't make them . This was just a week ago .
I can feel the slide hit with authority with the 3 standard springs received with the Witness Hunter. I'm using the marked "75AA KG 6 ,46" which I'm thinking is around 16 lbs. and the heaviest the pistol came with .
As I mentioned I'm using the 20lb. Wolff spring in my Witness 4 1/2" and I'm pretty sure it's to light . I ordered another 20lb. for the Witness Hunter 6" barrel not wanting to wait any longer for the 22lb. but still on back order .
Growing up in a sporting goods shop with a renowned gunsmith I've shot just about everything with a trigger attached . Started shooting competition at age 11 and shot professionally for Federal for several years and the "International Trap and Skeet Team" for the Army befor volunteering for Nam but all scatter guns . Pistols , while we sold them I never shot them . Reloaded for practice only as reloads were disallowed for competition and again scatter loads only . Over this period I've seen many mishaps with barrels exploding and even actions on some of the finest shotguns ever made even sending a few to the hospital .
I don't want to go half ass'ed into anything I do so must rely on others for their expertise .
I'm aware of lockup (my term) and do not have a chrono which I think is very much needed I'm sure to prove this out . Thanks