A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby 45Badger on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:16 am

And I killed lots of zombies last week with an AR carbine, 870 Police, and a 5" S&W 625. Ask Brian, he saw it all.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby 45Badger on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:17 am

We agree on everything but the statistical relevance. I have guns for all sorts of reasons, including personal/family security and just plain fun.

The statistical odds that I (or any of us) will ever need them for the former are exceptionally low. The odds that I will need them because I am confronted by mass shooter are another gazillion factor lower. The odds that I will be suddenly stupid and run towards the the gunfire of a mass shooter and use my handgun to engage/kill/disable/scare him without causing collateral damage, getting shot by him, or getting shot by police are even lower. I think it's all summed up by my use of the word "effectively" in my first post.

Lest you think I am anti mall ninja, I'm relatively proficient in the use of handguns, rifles and shotguns. When I focus and pay attention, I'm pretty good. I'm a lapsed NRA instructor in basic pistol and personal protection. Have competed a couple states BS trainings for carry requirements and completed a couple self defense and force on force workshops. I have just as much Walter Mitty old white guy testosterone as the next gun nut. And then the facts get in the way.

If I'm ever stupid or unlucky enough to be in the position of needing armed self defense, I will be very happy to escape with my skin intact.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby Uffdaphil on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 am

ORM. You are correct on the facts, but the effecacy of carrying is not the same as your examples. That neck brace only makes me safer. A sprinkling of covertly armed citizens makes all society safer.

Per the motorcycle helmet example. If safety is paramount why ride a bike at all when a protective four-wheeled cage will much more likely keep you alive? We two-wheelers value the in the wind experience enough to accept the risk. Helmets are obviously safer, but it's like riding with only your head in a car. Dilutes the joy big time. I always put on the pot on the highway, but like the open air just tootling around town. I've long argued your points with those advocating mandatory helmet law for bikers. They would provide the same protection and discomfort for car drivers. Life's a compromise. Mandate as little as possible and the worlds a better place.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby Hmac on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:07 am

Uffdaphil wrote:ORM. You are correct on the facts, but the effecacy of carrying is not the same as your examples. That neck brace only makes me safer. A sprinkling of covertly armed citizens makes all society safer.


I might believe that if I thought that the typical handgun permittee, or even a significant percentage of them, actually had taken any firearms self-defense training and practiced shooting regularly.



Uffdaphil wrote:Per the motorcycle helmet example. If safety is paramount why ride a bike at all when a protective four-wheeled cage will much more likely keep you alive? We two-wheelers value the in the wind experience enough to accept the risk. Helmets are obviously safer, but it's like riding with only your head in a car. Dilutes the joy big time. I always put on the pot on the highway, but like the open air just tootling around town. I've long argued your points with those advocating mandatory helmet law for bikers. They would provide the same protection and discomfort for car drivers. Life's a compromise. Mandate as little as possible and the worlds a better place.


That was my point. Mitigate risk...? Right, sell the bike, strap into the car with your helmet and kevlar body armor and put down the cigarette. Then strap on your gun. Now you've covered yourself against several potential life-ending events, not just the ones that fulfill a self-defense fantasy. Wearing a helmet isn't sexy. Strapping on a handgun is.

Not preaching here...FWIW I rarely wear a helmet while riding my Heritage Softail. I am a trauma surgeon, and yes, I clearly understand the risks involved in my life, including motorcycles, helmets, 5-point harnesses, and carrying firearms. I do some things...the ones that aren't too inconvenient like wearing a seatbelt...routinely. For more cumbersome things like helmets, kevlar, or carrying a firearm, my evaluation of the circumstances determines the precautions I take in my daily activities.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby 45Badger on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:18 am

Hmac wrote:
Uffdaphil wrote:ORM. You are correct on the facts, but the effecacy of carrying is not the same as your examples. That neck brace only makes me safer. A sprinkling of covertly armed citizens makes all society safer.

Per the motorcycle helmet example. If safety is paramount why ride a bike at all when a protective four-wheeled cage will much more likely keep you alive? We two-wheelers value the in the wind experience enough to accept the risk. Helmets are obviously safer, but it's like riding with only your head in a car. Dilutes the joy big time. I always put on the pot on the highway, but like the open air just tootling around town. I've long argued your points with those advocating mandatory helmet law for bikers. They would provide the same protection and discomfort for car drivers. Life's a compromise. Mandate as little as possible and the worlds a better place.


That was my point. Mitigate risk...? Right, sell the bike, strap into the car with your helmet and kevlar body armor and put down the cigarette. Then strap on your gun. Now you've covered yourself against several potential life-ending events, not just the ones that fulfill a self-defense fantasy. Wearing a helmet isn't sexy. Strapping on a handgun is.

Not preaching here...FWIW I rarely wear a helmet while riding my Heritage Softail. I am a trauma surgeon, and yes, I clearly understand the risks involved in my life, including motorcycles, helmets, 5-point harnesses, and carrying firearms. My evaluation of the circumstances determine my precautions, whether it's wearing a helmet or carrying a firearm.


You guys found my emerging passion and 2/3rds life crisis 8-)

Took a 20-something year break from riding. Started back up about 2 years ago. Motorcycles are just like guns. They breed like fracking rabbits. Now have three and there's no room in garage for truck. Range trips this year? Maybe 8 including a couple IDPA matches. Miles on bikes? about 5000 :D

I went from paranoid ATGATT to full face helmet, great jackets, gloves and boots. Jeans are just too comfy. It's crazy congested here in the ******* burbs, so no thoughts of going without a lid. Too many clueless (on phone, texting, yelling at kids) soccer moms and dads in big SUVs, minivans and Beemers to avoid. On the open road where I am much less likely to crash? Maybe someday.
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"You look like a tactical lumberjack"
Monschman is a thieving d-bag
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby Hmac on Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:25 am

45Badger wrote:
I went from paranoid ATGATT to full face helmet, great jackets, gloves and boots. Jeans are just too comfy. It's crazy congested here in the ******* burbs, so no thoughts of going without a lid. Too many clueless (on phone, texting, yelling at kids) soccer moms and dads in big SUVs, minivans and Beemers to avoid. On the open road where I am much less likely to crash? Maybe someday.


Yeah, I get that. Where I live here in the sticks, the odds are better. I have a nice helmet and nice leathers though, and I do wear them if the intersection and stoplight count on my planned route exceeds a certain threshold.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby Uffdaphil on Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:03 am

After 51 years of riding I'm reduced to a 300cc Vespa with CVT. rarely exceed 45 anymore. Still enjoy it, especially after mowing the lawn.do have 2 helmets and a jacket with armor.

Almost time to move the love seat downstairs to make room for the bike in the living room. Yes, divorced.
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Postby tletourneau on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:39 pm

Seeing that we're going a bit OT here, I just got back into riding again as well. I don't go past my driveway without my modular helmet (with my Sena 20S), armored jacket and boots. The gloves and armored over-pants are optional for me depending on weather. I always have the gun with me. :)

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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby george on Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:59 pm

Well, if you get a good FAN and turn the TV you can ride year round, I'd wear the helmet jest in case, they show a lot of accidents on TV.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby Randygmn on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:26 pm

Removing the designations of "gun free zones" won't reduce the actual amount of fatalities in these active shooter situations (except for the occasional unicorn event when an armed civilian intervenes). But it most certainly will reduce the frequency at which they do occur. These murderers choose their locations based primarily on the fact they know they won't be opposed with firearms during their crimes. It's why you don't see this happening at gun ranges and police stations. Until these lunatics start to question whether they will be faced with armed citizens fighting back, the carnage will continue. For me personally, I carry everywhere, except those with federal restrictions. And I limit visiting those places, like the plague.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby LarryFlew on Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:36 pm

I'm kind of with Hmac on the question of an untrained person with a handgun doing much good. Even with some training most could not hit what they are aiming at and don't even shoot twice a year. STILL think there would likely be less if there weren't any no gun zones but it's just conjecture and won't happen anyway.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby 45Badger on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:43 pm

Randygmn wrote:Removing the designations of "gun free zones" won't reduce the actual amount of fatalities in these active shooter situations (except for the occasional unicorn event when an armed civilian intervenes). But it most certainly will reduce the frequency at which they do occur. These murderers choose their locations based primarily on the fact they know they won't be opposed with firearms during their crimes. It's why you don't see this happening at gun ranges and police stations. Until these lunatics start to question whether they will be faced with armed citizens fighting back, the carnage will continue. For me personally, I carry everywhere, except those with federal restrictions. And I limit visiting those places, like the plague.


might not be "most certainly", but close enough to be a good idea.
Live free, or die!
9mm = .45acp set on "stun"
Big Bullets At Moderate Speeds....Make Things Move
"You look like a tactical lumberjack"
Monschman is a thieving d-bag
.45 ACP - Because Shooting Twice Is Silly!
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby 2in2out on Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:50 pm

Randygmn wrote:Removing the designations of "gun free zones" won't reduce the actual amount of fatalities in these active shooter situations (except for the occasional unicorn event when an armed civilian intervenes). But it most certainly will reduce the frequency at which they do occur. These murderers choose their locations based primarily on the fact they know they won't be opposed with firearms during their crimes. It's why you don't see this happening at gun ranges and police stations. Until these lunatics start to question whether they will be faced with armed citizens fighting back, the carnage will continue. For me personally, I carry everywhere, except those with federal restrictions. And I limit visiting those places, like the plague.


+1

What we're talking about is like CPR. The odds of a single individual needing to use that life-saving skill are slim, which is why The Red Cross and American Heart Association (among others ) are so passionate about getting as many people trained as possible.

Life saving.
Skill.
As many people as possible.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby mrp on Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:36 pm

LarryFlew wrote:I'm kind of with Hmac on the question of an untrained person with a handgun doing much good. Even with some training most could not hit what they are aiming at and don't even shoot twice a year


Sometimes these guys commit suicide when they meet armed resistance. They don't wait to get shot.
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Re: A Common Sense Gun Control Proposal

Postby TooFewGuns on Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:27 am

The question of the CCW permit holder doing much good needs to be considered from a wider view. Introducing the possibility of armed resistance may make some look for an easier target. The other factor is the distraction that the shooter would face. Having to take their focus off of potential victims, and face the "good (intentions) guy" may reduce the body count until more help arrives.
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