450 Bushmaster or 458 socom, or 50 beowolf.

[PRS]

Why would I ever need to? That 168gr does ok on a hog.

[Holland&Holland]

Why would I ever need to? That 168gr does ok on a hog.

Why do you need a 168? Is a 150 not good enough?

Maybe stick with 58 gr8 .243s. That should be sufficient.

[PRS]

So there is absolutely no reason to use a 300gr that falls out of the sky past 200yrds? Just a desire to spend 2twice as much on brass….

[Holland&Holland]

So there is absolutely no reason to use a 300gr that falls out of the sky past 200yrds? Just a desire to spend 2twice as much on brass….

So your logic fails and you what? Avoid the question?

There are bigger things than hogs out there and most hunting is done under 200 yards. So you do the math.

[PRS]

I'm trying to understand your logic…. Why would you want this caliber, what would you use it for?

[Bearcatrp]

The Raptor has so many things going against it. Controlled mostly by one company which brings costs up. Range is very limited. Pretty much a wild cat round. For now will stick with my 308. Plenty of reload supplies. Can even get AP for the 308 as I did for my 50BMG when I had it. Miss the big boomers though.

[Holland&Holland]

I'm trying to understand your logic…. Why would you want this caliber, what would you use it for?

Why would one want a Socom, Beowulf, or bushy? At least in the raptor one gets performance matching a .45-70 as opposed to those anemic rounds.

Now the question on the table is when is 308 not enough? You answered that yourself. If you feel 168s are warranted over 150s then you grasp the concept and just need to carry the logic out further.

For example if you have a brown bear charging you would you rather have 300 gr moving at 2200 or 168s at 2700?

[Bearcatrp]

For example if you have a brown bear charging you would you rather have 300 gr moving at 2200 or 168s at 2700?

That's what the AP would be for. If none on hand, would be having at least a 200 gr bullet. No doubt the Raptor would do the job on a bear. Bigger question would be are you able to hold your composure and make direct repeating shots before you are eaten. Chances are you will have time for one shot before it is upon you ready to kill you. Better have the right round for the job or your a snack.

[PRS]

If a brown bear is charging me I want a bullet that has the construction to penetrate the animal. After that there is no difference.

[Holland&Holland]

For example if you have a brown bear charging you would you rather have 300 gr moving at 2200 or 168s at 2700?

That's what the AP would be for. If none on hand, would be having at least a 200 gr bullet. No doubt the Raptor would do the job on a bear. Bigger question would be are you able to hold your composure and make direct repeating shots before you are eaten. Chances are you will have time for one shot before it is upon you ready to kill you. Better have the right round for the job or your a snack.

So that round is a 168gr .308?

[Holland&Holland]

If a brown bear is charging me I want a bullet that has the construction to penetrate the animal. After that there is no difference.

Same question.

My point is that in a 300 or 325 .45 cal bullet you can find one constructed for this type of penetration. You would be hard pressed to find the same in a .308.

Why do you hate this round so much? Personally I could not care less because I would likely use my .375 H&H for such a situation but your question was what can this round do that a .308 can not. Now when that question is answered as their are applications where this round would out perform a .308, then you seem to take it personally.

[crbutler]

The bigger bullet diameter will give you more shock and quicker incapacitation assuming penetration is adequate. Penetration is related to sectional density, velocity and drag after impact (bullet construction.)

The various pistol big bores (which is mostly what we are talking about- they are intermediate cartridge big bores) are quite effective on soft skinned game, but much less forgiving on bigger animals. The effects of the socom/Beowulf/bushmaster rounds IMO is like that of the .454 casull or the 460 smith or .500 smith.

The Raptor is probably more akin to the .45-70, with black powder full bore ballistics. I have never seen one, myself. I do shoot a number of full sized African stopping calibers, and this is not in their class.

Will a .308 work on a charging big bear? Yep. More big bears have been shot with a heavy for caliber .30-06 bullets than anything else. I am not so sure that a soft point pistol class slug will work as well. What most of these AR options are is variants on Jeff Coopers thumper concept, ( a large bore light carbine for personal defense in a military setting) and I would think any of them would be very good at stopping a person...big animals, less so. A pistol is a compromise, as is a light big bore carbine.

As for shooting big bore guns after back surgery, the less recoil, the better. Stick with a .450 bushmaster (lighter bullets) at a lower velocity if what you want to do is fling a big hunk of lead. A heavy .45 colt load or a .44 mag lever gun might be more tolerable- but that is not an AR type gun. Frankly, a big bore for bear defense would not be a good choice, as it would be heavy enough you would not carry the thing. If you are comparing recoil to a Lapua, some of those (and some .50 BMG) may be OK, but you need a very heavy gun and a very effective muzzle break, and that means a bench gun for you. My .50 Barrett recoils less than a 12 ga hunting shotgun, but you won't find me hauling it around to shoot game with.

[Bearcatrp]

For example if you have a brown bear charging you would you rather have 300 gr moving at 2200 or 168s at 2700?

That's what the AP would be for. If none on hand, would be having at least a 200 gr bullet. No doubt the Raptor would do the job on a bear. Bigger question would be are you able to hold your composure and make direct repeating shots before you are eaten. Chances are you will have time for one shot before it is upon you ready to kill you. Better have the right round for the job or your a snack.

So that round is a 168gr .308?

162 grain.

[Ghost]

I'm trying to understand your logic…. Why would you want this caliber, what would you use it for?

If I asked myself that question I wouldn't have the majority of my collection.

[Holland&Holland]

The bigger bullet diameter will give you more shock and quicker incapacitation assuming penetration is adequate. Penetration is related to sectional density, velocity and drag after impact (bullet construction.)

The various pistol big bores (which is mostly what we are talking about- they are intermediate cartridge big bores) are quite effective on soft skinned game, but much less forgiving on bigger animals. The effects of the socom/Beowulf/bushmaster rounds IMO is like that of the .454 casull or the 460 smith or .500 smith.

The Raptor is probably more akin to the .45-70, with black powder full bore ballistics. I have never seen one, myself. I do shoot a number of full sized African stopping calibers, and this is not in their class.

Will a .308 work on a charging big bear? Yep. More big bears have been shot with a heavy for caliber .30-06 bullets than anything else. I am not so sure that a soft point pistol class slug will work as well. What most of these AR options are is variants on Jeff Coopers thumper concept, ( a large bore light carbine for personal defense in a military setting) and I would think any of them would be very good at stopping a person...big animals, less so. A pistol is a compromise, as is a light big bore carbine.

As for shooting big bore guns after back surgery, the less recoil, the better. Stick with a .450 bushmaster (lighter bullets) at a lower velocity if what you want to do is fling a big hunk of lead. A heavy .45 colt load or a .44 mag lever gun might be more tolerable- but that is not an AR type gun. Frankly, a big bore for bear defense would not be a good choice, as it would be heavy enough you would not carry the thing. If you are comparing recoil to a Lapua, some of those (and some .50 BMG) may be OK, but you need a very heavy gun and a very effective muzzle break, and that means a bench gun for you. My .50 Barrett recoils less than a 12 ga hunting shotgun, but you won't find me hauling it around to shoot game with.

Honestly not a raptor expert. But they are reporting a 300 gr at 2300. That is a stiff .45-70 not a trap door load. Shooting a hardcast lead bullet that is equal to or in excess of marlin guide gun ballistics so while it is no nitro express I would tender it would be a better bear stopper than a 168 or 162 gr 308 load.