Just got kicked off the range at Bills in Robbinsdale

[Ivan45]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

[rtk]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

I agree.

[george]

So it's clear, you only HAVE TO show papers to LE and ATF, any one can request it but only LE and ATF are mandatory.
I got this from ATF NFA division this morning but have been gone.
Make your own decision with those playing cop.

Law enforcement is entitled to see your paperwork upon request. If you go to a gun range and the owners want to see your paperwork if you refuse them they could tell you to leave since it is there place of operation. Just any Joe wanting to see your paperwork then I would say that would be up to you whether you want to show them or not. Thanks



Andrew Ashton

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives

Specialist-NFA Branch

244 Needy Road Martinsburg, WV 25405 Suite 1120

Mainline # 304-616-4500

Fax # 304-616-4501

Directline # 304-616-4541

Cell # 304-268-2477

Email Andrew.Ashton@Atf.gov

[xd ED]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

Amazing then, that people come out of the woodwork with the same negative experiences.

Several years ago, I bought a Silver Pass. During the course of the year I had the pass, the service deteriorated to the point I didn't bother going the last month or so I had the pass.
I still have the Rental punch card, and shooting pass punch cards- totally unused. there have been times I've wanted to take friends/ relatives shooting, but even though it would be a freebie, I hesitated to have someone's first experience at a gun range be that which I was exposed to.
Now maybe things changed,or maybe the people who wish to provide "... most hospitable atmosphere possible..." don't spend enough time and energy to insure that policy gets to the range employees.

[mmhoium]

I'm so friggin angry I could spit nails. Go to sight in a new red dot on my CZ Scorpion. Guy (who I've never seen before there) taps me in the shoulder and asks if I have a tax stamp for it.....No, I say, it's still a pistol (it has a buffer tube with a CAA saddle). He says "I don't think you're allowed to shoot that here, I'm going to need to go check with someone". He comes back and says "Nope, not allowed". This is a gun I've fired there (in the same configuration) multiple times before, so I'm pretty mad at this point. I go out to the desk and the guy says "how's it going?" Well, sport, it's not going so well. I say that I don't understand why I can't fire it there, etc, etc....I didn't shoulder, etc. guy says "yes you did. We saw it from here."

This is straight deja vu for me. Took my Scorpion to Robbinsdale Bills about a month or so ago on my lunch break. Was dialing in my sight, 3 round loads in my mags, and was stopped by a worker. Told me he saw me shoulder my scorpion and I have to leave if I don't have sbr paperwork, no warning. Running a Thordsen cheek rest and am fully aware of the laws - cheek only. You never know who's watching and I wouldn't risk losing my firearms owning ability. I pled my case but the guy was on a power trip and was raising his voice with me. Had been a 3-4 time per month visitor, never going back. Businesses who don't respect their customers get none of my money.

[Snakeman721]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

Well apparantly there are some that use Bills and do NOT follow the uncasing rule as I've caught them uncasing behind the line at OGC and them telling me they always do it that way at Bills. Even had some customers complain that we don't provide tables behind the line just for that purpose. I'm just telling you what I see and hear from our customers. As for the hoopla over CC and NFA permits, I'm sorry I jumped into that mess. I'm just stating what OGC POLICY is....and it changes from time to time....I'm not crystal clear on all the actual state and federal laws as OGC is my second job and I don't have time to do in depth research. If Chris changes his mind then the store policy will change. There's also the possibility that I may be totally wrong as I don't always get updated on changes when it's busy there.

[xd ED]

I always figured leaving stuff on the tables was asking it to disappear...
kept my range bag at my feet..

[Holland&Holland]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

Well apparantly there are some that use Bills and do NOT follow the uncasing rule as I've caught them uncasing behind the line at OGC and them telling me they always do it that way at Bills. Even had some customers complain that we don't provide tables behind the line just for that purpose. I'm just telling you what I see and hear from our customers. As for the hoopla over CC and NFA permits, I'm sorry I jumped into that mess. I'm just stating what OGC POLICY is....and it changes from time to time....I'm not crystal clear on all the actual state and federal laws as OGC is my second job and I don't have time to do in depth research. If Chris changes his mind then the store policy will change. There's also the possibility that I may be totally wrong as I don't always get updated on changes when it's busy there.

OK for many many years OGC stood for Oakdale Gun Club. I would suggest you be more clear about which OGC you are referring to.

[jshuberg]

Bill's requires you to voluntarily show your form 1/4 to them prior to shooting it. It's been that way for at least the last 10 years. Basically, they don't want to be known as the place that turns a blind eye to someone commiting a felony. That invites additional BATFE scrutiny. I'm sure that it would also cause problems with their insurance and license with the city council.

The only people who can *legally* compel you to show them your form 1/4 is a BATFE or IRS agent (since it's a tax document), or a judge. Law enforcement cannot legally compel you to show them your paperwork. That being said, it is against the law to own NFA weapons unless you have registered it with BATFE. The recent change to the suppressor law in MN states that it is a felony to sell or possess a suppressor that is not lawfully possessed under federal law. Much like carrying a firearm in public is a crime, but having a permit is an exemption from committing the crime, having a suppressor is presumed to be a crime unless you can prove that it is possessed lawfully under federal law. The only way you can prove that is to voluntarily produce your registration documents. It's a bit of a catch 22 - you are not legally required to produce it for law enforcement, but if you don't you will be arrested.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.66

Its up to the range officer at Bill's (or anywhere) to make a judgement call regarding anything they feel is unsafe or unlawful. They might give you a warning, they might ask you to leave. They go through staff fairly regularly, and how one person responds to something they saw (or thought they saw) might be different week to week. They also give the range rules to everyone before they go out to the range. It's true that there are idiots who for some reason can't seem to understand simple instructions. It's always going to happen. My observation is that guns are uncased behind the line, and muzzle sweeping occurs most often by "old timers" sighting in their rifle for hunting season. If the ROs see someone doing this, they'll address it. However, we are all individually responsible for our own safety. If you see someone doing something you feel is unsafe, politely correct them, and then notify the RO.

If anyone has a problem with a business, any business, before going off on a public rant on the internet they should contact the manager and discuss what happened. If you don't do that, you have nothing at all to bitch about. We're all human, and suffer all the failing that go along with being human. Most businesses will accommodate a reasonable complaint when contacted about it. If you don't give them the chance to make it right, or blame a business on the poor behavior of another customer without alerting them to that behavior, you're just shaking your fist at the sky.

[Snakeman721]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

Well apparantly there are some that use Bills and do NOT follow the uncasing rule as I've caught them uncasing behind the line at OGC and them telling me they always do it that way at Bills. Even had some customers complain that we don't provide tables behind the line just for that purpose. I'm just telling you what I see and hear from our customers. As for the hoopla over CC and NFA permits, I'm sorry I jumped into that mess. I'm just stating what OGC POLICY is....and it changes from time to time....I'm not crystal clear on all the actual state and federal laws as OGC is my second job and I don't have time to do in depth research. If Chris changes his mind then the store policy will change. There's also the possibility that I may be totally wrong as I don't always get updated on changes when it's busy there.

OK for many many years OGC stood for Oakdale Gun Club. I would suggest you be more clear about which OGC you are referring to.

I'm aware of that, but since this thread started as a rant against Bills and I (and others) jumped in with the rules at Osseo Gun Club, I thought it was understood that OGC, in the context of THIS thread, means OSSEO Gun Club. Didn't think I had to spell it out every single time.

[Ghost]

I'm aware of that, but since this thread started as a rant against Bills and I (and others) jumped in with the rules at Osseo Gun Club, I thought it was understood that OGC, in the context of THIS thread, means OSSEO Gun Club. Didn't think I had to spell it out every single time.

I vote you now call it OSGC, do we have a second?

[LePetomane]

Frankly I'm getting a bit tired of all the Bill's bashing. Everyone at Bill's tries very hard to provide the safest and most hospitable atmosphere possible. And to be clear, there is NO uncasing or casing anywhere but at the line, and keeping your own brass is no problem. For being a supposed "community" of enthusiasts, we sure enjoy flaming our own.

Same here. If you don't like them then don't go there. I have always been treated very well there. Their range, their rules.

[goosed]

you are not legally required to produce it for law enforcement, but if you don't you will be arrested.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.66

Not sure I'm following the distinction are you're drawing between "legally required" and "if you don't you will be arrested"?

[jshuberg]

That's the catch 22. Because a form 1/4 is a tax document, and protected under privacy laws, a police officer cannot demand you produce it for them. They can demand you produce your drivers license and insurance if pulled over, but they cannot demand you produce your registration document. It's outside of the scope of what they can require you to do, without a warrant.

However, if you don't *voluntarily* produce your registration, they will presume that it's not lawfully registered, and arrest you.

The practical result is that you should always carry a copy of your form 1/4 with any NFA weapon, and voluntarily produce it if questioned by law enforcement. Even though it is a tax document protected by the privacy act of 1974, it is also the only document proving an NFA weapon is lawfully owned. You should show it to the cops without making a hassle about it.


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[gun_fan111v2]

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