ATF reverses itself allowing the shouldering of Sig Braces

[David]

This is my favorite solution to the SIG Brace issue:

[Randygmn]

This is my favorite solution to the SIG Brace issue:

Except the restrictions on that particular SBR are outrageously onerous. Can't carry it loaded in the cab of your car. Can't carry concealed on your person (back pack). Can't loan it to a friend. Can't sell it to a friend without months of paperwork/red tape. Can't carry it across state lines without a preapproved permission slip. Doesn't sound like a solution to me.

[xd ED]

<<<snipped>>>>
Except the restrictions on that particular SBR are outrageously onerous. Can't carry it loaded in the cab of your car. Can't carry concealed on your person (back pack). Can't loan it to a friend. Can't sell it to a friend without months of paperwork/red tape. Can't carry it across state lines without a preapproved permission slip. Doesn't sound like a solution to me.

Are those restrictions particular to that weapon, as you seem to suggest, or all SBRs?

[Randygmn]

<<<snipped>>>>
Except the restrictions on that particular SBR are outrageously onerous. Can't carry it loaded in the cab of your car. Can't carry concealed on your person (back pack). Can't loan it to a friend. Can't sell it to a friend without months of paperwork/red tape. Can't carry it across state lines without a preapproved permission slip. Doesn't sound like a solution to me.

Are those restrictions particular to that weapon, as you seem to suggest, or all SBRs?

All SBR's.

[David]

I have no interest in carrying it loaded, in my car or anywhere else. That's what I have a pistol for (and your comment applies to all rifles, not just SBRs). I absolutely can loan it to a friend, simply by taking 30 seconds to write his name down on the appropriate form in my trust. And selling it is as simple as removing the stock. The gun is only an SBR when it has a stock on it. Same with transporting across state lines. I take off the stock and it's no longer an NFA gun.

[LumberZach]

I have no interest in carrying it loaded, in my car or anywhere else. That's what I have a pistol for (and your comment applies to all rifles, not just SBRs). I absolutely can loan it to a friend, simply by taking 30 seconds to write his name down on the appropriate form in my trust. And selling it is as simple as removing the stock. The gun is only an SBR when it has a stock on it. Same with transporting across state lines. I take off the stock and it's no longer an NFA gun.

Can someone verify this? I thought once it was a registered sbr it's always an nfa item and simply taking the stock off would not change it back to a pistol. I however do not know this for certain.


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[Squib Joe]

David is correct, although you would also want to send a certified letter to the ATF informing and asking them to remove the firearm from the NFA Registration and Transfer record.

[FJ540]

David is correct, although you would also want to send a certified letter to the ATF informing and asking them to remove the firearm from the NFA Registration and Transfer record.

Which would take another $200 and months of paperwork to be allowed to reinstall stock when returning to MN?

[Squib Joe]

David is correct, although you would also want to send a certified letter to the ATF informing and asking them to remove the firearm from the NFA Registration and Transfer record.

Which would take another $200 and months of paperwork to be allowed to reinstall stock when returning to MN?

Yep. Or roll the dice and hope nothing bad enough happens when you travel that would require law enforcement to find out that you have a registered SBR across state lines without "permission". Honestly, it probably wouldn't turn up with casual LE contact, but still..

The easier thing to do is file a Form 20 every January 1st for every location you may travel to out of state. They can cover a time period of up to a year, and they take about 20 minutes to fill out and mail.

[David]

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the gun can go back and forth from NFA configuration to "regular" configuration, as long as you have the stamp and do not transfer ownership. The NFA handbook doesn't really address going back and forth specifically, but Section 2.5 of chapter two says, "If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon." As we know, when you get your stamp, your gun does not become an NFA weapon until you actually modify it (you could wait years to do so if you wanted), so it seems that the stamp and the gun exist somewhat independently of each other. Your thoughts on this?

Also, regarding transferring across state lines the ATF Q&A states: "Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
A: If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA." Another interpretation letter that I can't find right now, if I remember correctly, states that ownership and "retains control over" are not the same thing. Basically, if you don't have the short barrel (or stock, in this case) with you when you go over the state line, you are not transporting an NFA weapon. This would also seem to support the assertion above that you can go back and forth between NFA and "regular" status.

Also, ATF 2011-4 states, "Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made." This is talking about the concept of turning your pistol into a rifle, or turning your rifle into a pistol, so it does not address NFA weapons specifically, but since others have asked about the whole AR pistol vs. rifle thing, I thought I'd include it.

Finally, Section 2.5, "Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components," says nothing about sending a letter to the ATF to remove it from the registry. It states that just removing the parts that make it an NFA weapon automatically removes it from the scope of the NFA. In another section of the same document, they say that it is a good idea (but not required) to send such a letter if you transfer the firearm that is no longer an NFA weapon, to protect yourself in case the weapon is later used in a crime, or the new owner decides to put a short barrel on it. That way you don't get in trouble for transferring an NFA weapon improperly. I'd definitely send that letter if I sold it.

I'm guessing you know more about NFA stuff than the rest of us put together, so I'm curious what you think about all of the above.

[David]

Oh, interesting, I found this letter from the ATF from 2007. It seems to address some of these issues nicely, assuming ATF is consistent, which might not be the best assumption:

"Finally, if you place the long barrel on your registered SBR receiver (essentially converting the weapon temporarily from a SBR into a standard rifle), you may transport the long barreled weapon across State lines without completing the above-noted procedures and receiving permission for [sic] NFA Branch. You could also transport the receiver itself with no barrel attached across state lines without permission. However, in both these instances, the short barreled upper must be left at home and cannot be transported across state lines in association with either the unbarreled registered SBR receiver or the long barreled rifle utilizing the registered SBR receiver."

[FJ540]

WTF? We're actually having informative discussions about guns on this site again.

That's interesting that they allow the weapon to float back out of purview of the NFA after it's been remanufactured to be a controlled weapon and marked accordingly. Very good info to be aware of for the stamp collectors.

[David]

What I was told by the attorney who created my trust, and what I see in all the ATF documents, is that configuration is what determines NFA status, not your stamp. The stamp is merely your "permission" to posses the NFA item, which exists, legally or illegally, independently from your stamp. And it actually makes sense, which you do find from time to time in government regulations.

[Ghost]

Oh, interesting, I found this letter from the ATF from 2007. It seems to address some of these issues nicely, assuming ATF is consistent, which might not be the best assumption:

"Finally, if you place the long barrel on your registered SBR receiver (essentially converting the weapon temporarily from a SBR into a standard rifle), you may transport the long barreled weapon across State lines without completing the above-noted procedures and receiving permission for [sic] NFA Branch. You could also transport the receiver itself with no barrel attached across state lines without permission. However, in both these instances, the short barreled upper must be left at home and cannot be transported across state lines in association with either the unbarreled registered SBR receiver or the long barreled rifle utilizing the registered SBR receiver."

That's the way I've always understood it. Either convert to pistol or 16+" rifle for trips to other states without paperwork.

[Squib Joe]

I'm guessing you know more about NFA stuff than the rest of us put together, so I'm curious what you think about all of the above.

And I'm guessing that I don't, because from what you've tracked down it does look like temporarily removing the stock from your Scorpion, and not having the stock in constructive possession while you travel, would in fact remove it from the purview of the NFA. Although I still maintain that it would be in the registry pretty much forever until you ask them to remove it (and you can prove that you asked them!)

Sorry if I muddled things up with bad info, I based it on what I know about interstate travel with machine guns and that apparently works differently than SBRs