Cutting Down on Rounds Fired in Training

[cmj685]

I happened to see Rob Pincus' latest ICE newsletter today and noted that it had an article in which he explained that he has started to cut down on the number of rounds needing to be fired in his training classes because of the expense to the students. I have to admit that, over the past year, I have started factoring that into any training I might consider, and admit that I turned down opportunities for two high-class training opportunities this past year because of the cost of the ammunition the classes wanted to burn. It is not unusual for some of the training classes to want the shooter to fire 750 to 1000 rounds or more, and even with my cheap 9mm stuff, that is going to add an extra $150 -$250 dollars to the cost of the class. So now the class has just become significantly more expensive. And if you can't buy replacement ammo because there is none on the shelves, then the price of that ammo skyrockets considerably--it may even be priceless! Thought it would be interesting to see what you guys are thinking. Anyone else been thinking about this? Any trainers who have cut back the number of rounds fired in the classes?

[jac714]

I happened to see Rob Pincus' latest ICE newsletter today and noted that it had an article in which he explained that he has started to cut down on the number of rounds needing to be fired in his training classes because of the expense to the students. I have to admit that, over the past year, I have started factoring that into any training I might consider, and admit that I turned down opportunities for two high-class training opportunities this past year because of the cost of the ammunition the classes wanted to burn. It is not unusual for some of the training classes to want the shooter to fire 750 to 1000 rounds or more, and even with my cheap 9mm stuff, that is going to add an extra $150 -$250 dollars to the cost of the class. So now the class has just become significantly more expensive. And if you can't buy replacement ammo because there is none on the shelves, then the price of that ammo skyrockets considerably--it may even be priceless! Thought it would be interesting to see what you guys are thinking. Anyone else been thinking about this? Any trainers who have cut back the number of rounds fired in the classes?

As yet the amount of ammo required for any event has not entered my calculations.

In most cases I shoot reloads, if that is not an option I have a couple thousand rounds of factory ammo on-hand.

[rtk]

I am in the same boat. I am being very careful on what I do this coming season due to ammo costs and the down turn in the ecomomy.

RTK

[cobb]

My Handgun Skills Course has always been at a 200-300 round count which some think short change a student because they do not get to shoot enough. The first hour or so of this 5 hour course is on technique alone and no ammo is even in the handgun, although this is a 100% range course. I could easily do a course that they fire 500 rounds, but then all they do is shoot and that they can do on their own. At the end of the course they all do get 5 pages of a step-by-step notes of what is covered in class so that they can refine what was covered.

So maybe this course is now in vogue because the course focuses on technique and not the number of round fired.............

[1911fan]

I think this is a reason we are seeing airsoft and lazer guns for LEO training, as well as round counts going down. I used to buy a pallet of bullets every year. Not doing that anymore, it used to be 13.00 a thousand for 200 Grain SWC and 9 dollars a thousand for 155 SWC for the race guns, SO when a pallet of 75K of bullets was affordable, and primers were 6 dollars a thousand, we could afford to shoot.

[Don L]

It's been my experience with the "National Schools" I've attended that the rounds used were higher in the basic classes, and dropped some in the advanced classes, as the focus was more on "tactics and situations". I use that same thought with my courses. Whenever I see a ammo requirement for a class I'm considering taking that seems high, I wonder what I'll gain from that class with all that extra "trigger time". Some places feel that the "extra trigger time" is giving their students their money's worth for taking the class. Personally, I've taken a couple of the classes that shot a whole bunch, and I felt I learned the least. I'll wager that there's a lot of courses around the country that are reviewing "rounds required" to see where some changes can be made.

[selurcspi]

Without putting a specific number of rounds required, mostly because different students have different needs, I think classes with a specific round count will typically be a one size fits all and probably much fat could be trimmed.
Due to the fact that classroom (range) teaching is only ever the beginning portion of the learning of any particular skill; the round count in a class should be sufficient to teach the skill, perform some practice to ingrain the skill, adjustment of poor technique in order to perform the skill perfectly at least once, to be able to identify the correct finished product in the skill set.
After this is accomplished, the student must be committed to practice and returning to class to have their technique adjusted periodically to help remove bad habits.

I teach in a number of different arenas, but an acronym I picked up teaching skiing has always helped me in the teaching process
STUMP

Set the goal
Teach to the goal
Utilize Principles of Learning
Monitor and adjust
Provide closure

What does this mean?

1. Set the Goal
A. Introduce yourself
1. Learn the student’s names
2. Have students learn each other’s names
B. Assess the student (motivations, abilities, learning style, etc.)
C. Agree on the goal (decide which pathway to lead your student down)
1. This is can be a negotiation of what is appropriate and feasible given the constraints of time and abilities, etc.
2. Teach to the Goal
A. Be sure that the movements and skills you are teaching are consistent with the goal that you agreed upon
3. Utilize Principles of Learning
A. Get the student excited about what they are about to learn (relate it to their motivation)
B. Tell the student how the movement/task relates to the goal (Anchoring)
C. Identify what type(s) of learner each student are, and adapt teaching style to best address each student
D. Introduce new movements statically first
E. Apply static movements to dynamic situations
F. Provide the movements and skills necessary to be successful in a task or maneuver before attempting the task or maneuver
G. Model by demonstrating and explaining the movement/maneuver/task
H. Focus on the most important movements and how to blend them to achieve the maneuver/task
I. Keep everyone active
4. Monitor and Adjust
A. Analyze the student’s movements
B. Reinforce appropriate outcomes with specific and positive feedback
C. Adjust outcome by changing focus/maneuver/task
5. Provide Closure
A. Anchor what was learned back to the goal of the lesson (have student explain it to you)
B. Provide the student with movements and activities to practice
C. Preview what their next lesson would be about
D. Invite the students back

The upshot is that some students may require just a few rounds to grasp the skill being taught and others will need hundreds of rounds and much attention to be able to feel that perfect outcome. I believe a class that takes a cookie cutter approach in teaching is failing 25% to 50% of the students because some will get too little practice and others will be bored with doing the same thing repeatedly to no further effect.

Sorry for the diatribe, but there you go!

[hammAR]

Sorry for the diatribe, but there you go!

..so after the dissertation, the question remains....
since I don't have any bullets, can I use a bow and arrows for the steel shoot......

[plblark]

Slingshot but no speed loaders

[xd9]

A nail gun?


Or one with a "drum magazine"


Sorry for the thread drift....

[Stradawhovious]

I'm not sure that the rotary mags would be legal for competition.

[IDPA Shooter]

We moved the round count from 200 to 150 in our basic AR class and just worked with Farnam to bring down his round count from 800 to 500. It is a balancing act because Farnam charges $550 for the 2 days and people want to shoot. But at $.40 a round for 223 you are spending close to $1,000 including food, gas, without a hotel.

I have a Sig 229 229 DAK SAS that I really like, but do not shoot well in 40 cal. I got the Barsto conversion in 9mm to keep costs down, still not shooting it well. Ordered the new 22 conversion from Sig, hope that is the ticket. Payback of the $300 cost will not take long with the price difference between 9mm and 22cal, andI can find 22cal

[cobb]

....... just worked with Farnam to bring down his round count from 800 to 500

This can work 2 ways. If already have a fair amount of money invested in a class, I want to get the most out of it and do not mind spending extra to achieve that. It is kinda like going on a trip out to the north east coast, spending money on travel and lodging, but instead of eating at one of the great restaurants on the coast, you eat at McDonalds to save a few dollars. For me, I would sooner make the most of it, but that is me and possible at this time.

[IDPA Shooter]

Like I said, it is a balancing act. Farnam had initially said bring 800 rounds, we have both been to two of Farnam's pistol classes where where he said bring X rounds and we actually shot 50% to 70% of what we brought. We had several folks not attend this year due to the economy and finances ( I'll be one). Several more asked, OK I can bring 800 but what will we actually shoot. 500 is the number Farnam gave us for a response and he said he was scaling it down somewhat, I suspect from 550 or 600, rather than from 800.

It is kinda like IDPA matches, I bring 200 rounds and leave 100 in the car. The COF is generally 60 to 75 so I have rounds for a reshoot and extra ammo in case we do a sidematch, or stay after to shoot or a friend forgets their ammo. Ayoob's extreme Stressfire had us firing 1,000 rounds per day for 2 days a few years back. They still have the class, but it is now 600 rds per day and the ammo still costs as much as the class fee.

[1911fan]

I think if your a big training school, it would do well to reach out to big distributor or maker and buy ammo direct.