agents choose to carry personal weapons instead of Kimber

[Snowgun]

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

I hear what you're sayin' ... that's fine ... but let me offer an analogy ...

Not to offend anyone, but let's say a Chevy Crapalier would go 100,000mi with no oil changes or other maintenance.

And let's say a Chevy Tahoe is well-known to seize up at 10,000mi with no oil change.

I'll take the Tahoe, and change the oil, thank you!

Moreover, let's say I only ever need to drive it 10mi ... once ... ever.

More moreover, let's say I can't physically fit into the driver's seat of a Chevy Crapalier ... at which, as fine as it may be, it's simply not even an option, for me.

Oh I totally agree 100%. I just want to know how long I realistically have with the Tahoe before I better damn get an oil change.

[rugersol]

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

I hear what you're sayin' ... that's fine ... but let me offer an analogy ...

Not to offend anyone, but let's say a Chevy Crapalier would go 100,000mi with no oil changes or other maintenance.

And let's say a Chevy Tahoe is well-known to seize up at 10,000mi with no oil change.

I'll take the Tahoe, and change the oil, thank you!

Moreover, let's say I only ever need to drive it 10mi ... once ... ever.

More moreover, let's say I can't physically fit into the driver's seat of a Chevy Crapalier ... at which, as fine as it may be, it's simply not even an option, for me.

Oh I totally agree 100%. I just want to know how long I realistically have with the Tahoe before I better damn get an oil change.

Gotcha!

Unfortunately, as mentioned, that depends "on a great many thing" ...

First and foremost, if you have an internal extractor, you need to remove it and thoroughly clean it, and the tunnel ... it's kind of hard to do a good job with that, and not the breach-face at the same time, so I do them as a set, myself. If it's been a while, you may even need to use a pick. Most folks don't clean this at all ... so, with the typical field-strip 'n what not, they see reliability decrease, over thousands of rounds.

Sometimes there's a build-up on the breach-face ... best to keep that smooth ... don't take off any metal, though. I like to remove the firing pin and clean it, and the tunnel at this point ... in case, while cleaning the breach-face, any crud got into there.

There's also sometimes a build-up under the bbl ... where the chamber rests on the frame, as it would feed a new cartridge ... keep that clean/smooth.

Off the top of my head, I'd say those are the high-neglect areas for most folks. Beyond these, typical field-strip, scrub, lube should be good for at least 1,000rd ... depending on the ammo ... some stuff is just messier than others. For a defensive gun, I'd clean it thoroughly, re-assemble, shoot 20rd - 50rd of your carry ammo (to make sure ya didn't F anything up), and let it set. I'd also detail-strip and clean every 5,000 - 10,000rd. I couldn't say at what point it might otherwise fail ... but **** accumulates ... don't hurt to clean it once in a while.

I'll also mention the possibility of getting a new extractor. I hesitate to do that, as you might otherwise be removing a nicely tuned extractor, and replacing it with something less ... thereby actually making the pistol less reliable. However, I've actually had an extractor break. I can only imagine that's due to inferior steel, having been used (it was an older Colt).

Only other failures I've had was my slide-stop (a newer Colt) sheared off ... the gun still ran fine ... just didn't lock back after the last round. This don't include failures I've had with Kimbers ... but I don't count those as typical of well-made 1911's.

I own a few S&W 1911's ... all I'll say about 'em is, it's kinda like if Glock made a 1911 ... but not in an ugly way.

The ones I've got have got the Schwartz ... well ... some of 'em. There IS a possibility there of the hammer falling (when ya pull the trigger), but no bang! This would be due to the grip-safety prematurely allowing the trigger to be pulled. That's not to say any gun with the Schwartz is unreliable ... it just brings about extra stuff to consider. Not the least of which, if you F with one, you better F with the other ... or not at all. As noted elsewhere, the new S&W's will have NO Schwartz ... I wonder why?

That all may sound like a bit much. But again, it depends on what ya get. Some folks might be ok with some Philipino makin' $0.20/day "fine-tuning" their carry-gun. I don't know how S&W makes the guns they do, for the price they are, but when I need a gun I can depend on, that's what I grab ... period! And if ya don't F with 'em, they work ... no 100rd break-in ... no 500rd break-in ... no 1,500rd break-in .... outta the box ... they work. Even if ya F with 'em, if ya don't F it up, they STILL work!

And if one ever didn't ... probly even if ya F'd with it ... just send it in, and they'll fix it ... for free ... forever.

Put 'nother way, what if Taurus were to start importing "Glocks" from the Philipinnes ... and they were notorious for being unreliable ... and parts snapping off ... frames cracking ... all kinds of ****. Would ya then say the Glocks from Austria are "poorly designed"?

[timwarner]

Realistically how long would the thing last in a torture test? How would it compare against a glock? Half the glock's round count? 3/4? 1/4?

I hear what you're sayin' ... that's fine ... but let me offer an analogy ...

Not to offend anyone, but let's say a Chevy Crapalier would go 100,000mi with no oil changes or other maintenance.

And let's say a Chevy Tahoe is well-known to seize up at 10,000mi with no oil change.

I'll take the Tahoe, and change the oil, thank you!

Moreover, let's say I only ever need to drive it 10mi ... once ... ever.

More moreover, let's say I can't physically fit into the driver's seat of a Chevy Crapalier ... at which, as fine as it may be, it's simply not even an option, for me.

My cavalier is going strong at over 210k miles with minimum maintenance, only thing I've had to do for repairs was alternator.
It's still a sweet ride, even though I can't fit a rifle case in it.

[plblark]

Roof Rack

[timwarner]

Roof Rack

No, new car. Wife has the cavalier now, I got a station wagon.

[hammAR]

No, new car. Wife has the cavalier now, I got a station wagon.

Mr. MOM..............

[timwarner]

Go ahead HammAR. It's got 4x the HP of the cavalier, and power everything. Heated seats even. I'll drive a wagon with that over a cavalier any day.

And lots of room to carry stuff to the range.
I might even get myself a range cart this year.

[hammAR]

................at least it is MR. "guntotinandtotherange" MOM........can't fault that............

[Norsesmithy]

Hey, wagons are desirable.

How else do you convince someone that your car with a 6.2 liter supercharged 556 hp V8, rear wheel drive, 6 speed stick, 4.2 second 0-60 car was a sacrificial choice made for the good of the family?

\

Motor trend says this thing is nearly as fast around the figure 8 as a BMW M3.

Mr Mom indeed.

[timwarner]

That aside, if you put together the facts from the article, it looks like a scheme to let officers buy "old" equipment at a rate of as low as $1

If you declare your stuff old after 2-3 years, the officers buy it at a severely reduced rate, and the gov't buys em new. Sounds fishy to me, especially for an agency that self-admittedly has a very low usage of their firearms.
Perks of the job anyone?

[Pinnacle]

Back to the topic a bit after a brief intermission. I offer this

There is nothing that I can say that is bad about the 1911 and it is not how many rounds you can shoot prior to failure - that is meaningless. In a life or death situation, you might want to have the best most reliable piece of equipment in you hands that is capable of stringing along about 3 mags reliably for personal protection.

Name me a brand name pistol that is not capable of that great death defying feat..... Anything on the market is going to do that for you. Would I carry a 3" 1911 - YES if I had the inclination and it was capable of stringing 3 mags together from a pretty functional state of cleanliness. Would I take that to a training school and run 1000 rounds through it and not expect problems - HECK NO.

While a 3" 1911 is certainly not the best all around choice for handgun, it certainly is capable of doing what it is supposed to do - that is as a CARRY PIECE, and NOT a competition or school gun.

You DONT take a carry piece to the range and beat the crap out of it - you do a reasonable amount of practice with your carry weapon. Why do any of you think that I race with a G17C and CARRY a very often carried very little shot G19 that I bought new in 1992 - yeah it is about perfect in condition other than carry wear - and that is what a carry piece is.

Buy a FULL SIZED 1911 if you want to have something that is potentially more reliable than a 3" gun for range and school use or even carry - save the 3" gun for CARRY - the form factor is the same - the manual of arms is the same, the sight picture and bore height are the same......

ALL GUNS ARE MACHINES - the harder you run them - and the worse that they are maintained - the potentially more problems you will have and also - what did grandpa tell you?

USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB JMB never intended to makle a COMPACT 1911 with a captured spring and tolerances within 0.001!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Close Tolerances on the smaller 1911's can be real trouble. The balancing act with the recoil impulse and the shorter bbl are really tough and it is hard to get it exactly right - or for that matter for it to stay in "time" forever before something runs out of spec.

Heck i love 1911's - It just so happens that I shoot my glock a little better, and am more comfortable in MY Situation with more ammunition in the mag than the 1911, therefore - I choose the gun that best fits what I believe to the perceived threat.... Multiple assailents.

I asked myself the below questions:
Again, would I carry a 1911 in the same situation? Yes I would. would it do the job? Yes it would Will a 3" 1911 Stand up to tons of firing? Not as well as a full sized gun would.

[xd ED]

Todd Jarrett 1000 rounds in ten minutes........

He had me at 850 rds...
Seriously:
Thanks to all, especially hammAR and arhens for a very informative discussion.
Ed

[Pinnacle]

You can never go wrong with a 1911 as long as you take the time to learn to use it properly, and learn to take good care of it.

[NDB_MN]

IMO the biggest problem with Kimber is their lack of customer service.

I own 3 Kimbers - TLE II, Rimfire Target, Ultra Carry. The TLE II and Rimfire have been great guns - TLE has not had anything wrong in 1000 rounds so far, the Rimfire even eats the cheap stuff, no problems.

The Ultra did not like the magazine it came with. This is one of the biggest problems with Kimber's short 1911s. Once I found mags it liked though, no issues for 500 rounds and counting. I carry it without hesitation.

My father in law has a half dozen or more Kimbers and all have run great for him as well. Just sayin, there are decent ones out there. Some would have you believe Kimbers crumble to dust in your hands. Everyone knows that only happens with .40 S&W Glocks.


That said, I'm not surprised the 'agents' got rid of the Kimbers. A tight tolerance 1911 probably is not the best suited gun for policework. Not to mention your average agent can barely figure out how to open a car door let alone run a 'complicated' gun like a 1911. They should stick to simple DAO or Glock-like actions. Less to trouble their minds with. Also, selecting a crappy customer service shop like Kimber for beat-around police guns was D-U-M-B. You need a support structure for the armoring demands that a police force will put on their firearms. Kimber is not that kind of company.

[Paul]

That said, I'm not surprised the 'agents' got rid of the Kimbers. A tight tolerance 1911 probably is not the best suited gun for policework. Not to mention your average agent can barely figure out how to open a car door let alone run a 'complicated' gun like a 1911. They should stick to simple DAO or Glock-like actions. Less to trouble their minds with.

With 1,500 rounds through your 1911's, I can see why you're an expert. You must have a pretty important job, to be able to figure out such a complicated piece of equipment.